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Epimenides' Paradox
#1
Shlama,

Epimenides was a Cretan who said: "All Cretans are liars". In the books which deal with logic this statement is called Epimenides' Paradox. And quite surprisingly, you find in the book of Titus 1 Paul writes:

Even one of their own Prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. (Titus 1:12-14)

One of the interesting things is that Paul quote the Epimenides' Paradox, specifying that the speaker himself was a Cretan. "Cretans are always liars..." he then says that the man himself spoke the truth. But when the statement is spoken by a Cretan it is definitely not true. If it was true then at least once, a Cretan was not a liar, in which case the statement is false. The conclusion is the denial of the assumption, so the statement is not true. The writer Paul at least on this occasion, was without Divine Guidance for he did not discern the subtlety. (The other one being 1 Corinthians 7:25).

Source:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/paul.html
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#2
Paul was cracking a joke. I fail to see the significance of this.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#3
Hi Bar Khela:
In the book, Escher, Godel, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, by Douglas R. Hofstadter, it is Kurt Godel that sets forth Epimenides' Paradox or liar paradox (Page 16-18). To encapsulate the idea Godel paraphrases the statement this way.

"All consistent axiomatic formulations of number theory include undecided propositions."

Godel has taken the statement and rephrased it in mathematical terms.

The Apostle Paul, in his short discourse in Titus 1:12, and under the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit, has rebuked the statement of the Cretan philosopher Epimenides.

Epimenides statement...

"All Cretians are liars"

....can only invoke a strange paradoxical loop, a typical relative truth, spoken by those destitute of truth.

vis-a-vis

the absolute truth of God in Christ Whom brings everlasting salvation to the soul of man.

Something to ponder!

Regards,
Stephen Silver
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#4
Paul Younan Wrote:Paul was cracking a joke. I fail to see the significance of this.

The point is that Paul fell into the Paradox. Never would a man inspired by God fall into such a trap.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#5
bar_khela Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Paul was cracking a joke. I fail to see the significance of this.

The point is that Paul fell into the Paradox. Never would a man inspired by God fall into such a trap.

Who said he was inspired of God? And what is "inspiration?"

Paul was a leader of the community writing a letter to a congregation....he was not a prophet who yelled "Thus saith the LORD." He neither claimed to be a prophet, nor did he ever say that God was dictating what he was writing.

Likewise, the Gospels are 2 personal accounts (in the age-old Semitic tradition of "2 or 3 witnesses"), and two non-personal accounts, of what happened during the ministry of Jesus.

The Church of the East are not like Muslims, who believe their holy books to be the literal "word-for-word" word of Alaha. Not even Jews believe that, except for the first five books of the OT.

You are basing your argument against beliefs held by some Evangelical American Christian groups....but remember, I'm not part of that movement.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#6
Who said he was inspired of God? And what is "inspiration?"

Paul was a leader of the community writing a letter to a congregation....he was not a prophet who yelled "Thus saith the LORD." He neither claimed to be a prophet, nor did he ever say that God was dictating what he was writing.

Well he obviously didn't have a Pharisee's logic either.

Likewise, the Gospels are 2 personal accounts (in the age-old Semitic tradition of "2 or 3 witnesses"), and two non-personal accounts, of what happened during the ministry of Jesus.

Matthew was not written under the oil lamp in front of two live disciples, nor was it reread by two to three live disciples. Consider the following:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0196.asp">http://www.americancatholic.org/Newslet ... an0196.asp</a><!-- m -->

According to the author of this article

Such texts were presented to the community, reflected on, discussed and improved upon. Then Christian scribes well-versed in the Hebrew Scriptures refined the scriptural references. Gentile Christians sharpened the universal implications.

Ah---that's why there are gnostic elements throughout the entire NT.

The Church of the East are not like Muslims, who believe their holy books to be the literal "word-for-word" word of Alaha. Not even Jews believe that, except for the first five books of the OT.

The Jews believe that the Torah was transmitted to Moses from Alaha at Mt. Sinai alongside the Talmud (excluding Karaites).

You are basing your argument against beliefs held by some Evangelical American Christian groups....but remember, I'm not part of that movement.

Paul was "the ringleader of the Nazarenes." Therefore, such a man's rhetoric should be questioned if he could have not discerned the subtlety of the Paradox. That's my point.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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