09-30-2004, 09:48 PM
hi dave,
they shouldn't for as history shows, all human reason ultimately is flawed or we would all get along much better than we have as a species <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->
quantum physics shows that even the fundamental physics of reality is all a crap shoot (i.e. random chance)... so do you trust that you exist... that the universe exists... all products of random things... as for evolution... the mutations are indeed random errors in dna replication but natural selection is what propogates those changes that are of survival advantage into the gene pool, hence evolution... why human intelligence evolved must be some survival advantage to outwit, outplay, outsmart all the beasts and environment and need for food, water and shelter that are just trying to get the best of primitive man, and us too if we were not so sheltered already by civilization. And our conclusions are not chance for a lot of energy is expended at chaning this random chaos of the universe into the genetic encoding, molecular encoding and neurological encoding that allows us to think and reason... and as an ex physics teacher, I can guarantee you that 90% of people have highly flawed reasoning as they struggle with physics and even the best of us, like an Einstein made their fair share of reasoning mistakes but they worked hard so even if only a few percent of the time they were perfect or close enough, they still reasoned enough out of nature to give us a peak into God's grand design.
the way i see it, God only needed to set some very fudamental in motion, very intricately tuned so that it could allowed all the physics that allows all the chemistry that allows all the evolutionary biology that allows me to be here now thinking and typing and interacting with you over the internet
i disagree i think it is antiGod to say he took clay and was a two bit molder and two bit instant presto magician and then there was everything.. that is surely limited by man's imagination thousands of years ago.. but now with physics we can imagine and even reason and even prove science that tells us that God is far more great than any primitive man could have imagined that he could make such beautiful physics that leds to something as simple and elegent while complicated and mundane as evolution.. i praise God by seeking the truths he has for us to find with science and i am not so blasphemous as ancient men, especially since i am a woman, to suppose that i or any other men have known what God is limited in doing... and the more science find out the more the fundamentals are mysterious and fascinating and show glory to the creator of this elegent universe that allowed this magnificent evolution of all life.. .just hope we humans, don't keep screwing up the works <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->
without God, you would not have existance so it actually shows more so his necessity... as for the bible creation story.. it is just a story... just like science has shown that mental illness is not caused by demon possesion and pathological diseases are caused by bateria and viruses and body malfunctions and not punishments by God... stars and planets are not omens but have scientifically explainable paths due to gravitational forces... we can take the lessons on how to be a good person and live a good kind charitable forgiving life from the bible but we don't have to believe all the fanciful stories written by uneducated and sometimes ignorant and maybe even sometimes delusional men.
take a science course there is a mound of evidence.
you got that all wrong.. cosmic evolution says that big bang produced the unverse, space and time itself and hydrogen and gravity caused them to clump into stars and that gravity compression forces cause hydrogen to fuse int helium and other phsyics cause some stars at some points of fuel exhuastion to explode and produce the heavier elements and then those fuse into planets and if the conditions are right like on earth, then God brilliant glorious physics allows molecules and lo and behold those essential for primoridal life to be created... and some of those are proteins needed for cell structure and enzymes for converting smaller molecules into more complicated ones, and dna and rna, and walla... life... and changes in dna and selective forces create a diversity of life and hence the natural selection of more and more evolved forms of life... it is quite beautiful and MY God gave us this system that led to us to understand it and it is blasphemous to lie and deny it just because you did not learn the science or do the experiments to understand it... God is far above the petty men that wrote the books of the world religions and the intolerance and narrow mindedness of religions are creations of men not God.
you bet ya! and the fact that Jesus existed does save us cause it gives us hope that even at this imperfect stage of evolutionary mess we waring spiting brainwashed humans are at... a perfect kind divine soul like Jesus could exist and exists for all of us to find for ourself.
you dethrone God by denying the natural world as he created it as we can now discern by being brainwashed and blinded by milenia old ignorant men's words in books.
of course science changes, as we develop more technology and knowledge and geniuses find otherwise unresolved clues to the nature that God created as he created it and not as ignorant milenia old men GUESSED how he created it.
I agree that the ONLY TRUTH EVER and probably FOREVER are the teachings of Jesus of how we should be in our deeds, thoughts, actions, heart and soul... it is the only truth for us humans, everything else is just deductions from our senses that we reason and knowledge as best our ability.
yeh... so someone wrote that... its nice.. religion should help us to learn from our ancestors and hopefully the best in humanity, but it should not blind us to real TRUTHS.
Well, his upbringing and knowledge was human so of cousre he believed what the people of his time believed, but his heart and soul was divine so things of the spirit he was the Truth.. he would tell you now forsake this material world for the kindgom of God is not here in our books or earth... they are in the essence of what makes us good and therein God lies and that is where Jesus found him and brought him to us.
Jesus speaks to my heart and not my science so I listen to how he tells me how I should be and not how my science should be... he was a simple man who dealt with humanity and psychology, not science and engineering... so I can completely separate the two. How about you?
Shushan
Quote:Why should anyone believe your reasonings ?
they shouldn't for as history shows, all human reason ultimately is flawed or we would all get along much better than we have as a species <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->Quote:Why and how could we trust the product of evolution- a process of random molecular events which supposedly produced a human brain. How could we ever trust any conclusion any of us might reach if all is a product of chance ?
quantum physics shows that even the fundamental physics of reality is all a crap shoot (i.e. random chance)... so do you trust that you exist... that the universe exists... all products of random things... as for evolution... the mutations are indeed random errors in dna replication but natural selection is what propogates those changes that are of survival advantage into the gene pool, hence evolution... why human intelligence evolved must be some survival advantage to outwit, outplay, outsmart all the beasts and environment and need for food, water and shelter that are just trying to get the best of primitive man, and us too if we were not so sheltered already by civilization. And our conclusions are not chance for a lot of energy is expended at chaning this random chaos of the universe into the genetic encoding, molecular encoding and neurological encoding that allows us to think and reason... and as an ex physics teacher, I can guarantee you that 90% of people have highly flawed reasoning as they struggle with physics and even the best of us, like an Einstein made their fair share of reasoning mistakes but they worked hard so even if only a few percent of the time they were perfect or close enough, they still reasoned enough out of nature to give us a peak into God's grand design.
Quote:Do not say that God is behind it all.
the way i see it, God only needed to set some very fudamental in motion, very intricately tuned so that it could allowed all the physics that allows all the chemistry that allows all the evolutionary biology that allows me to be here now thinking and typing and interacting with you over the internet
Quote:Evolutionists cannot have it both ways. Evolutionary theory is driven by an anti-God sentiment and spirit.
i disagree i think it is antiGod to say he took clay and was a two bit molder and two bit instant presto magician and then there was everything.. that is surely limited by man's imagination thousands of years ago.. but now with physics we can imagine and even reason and even prove science that tells us that God is far more great than any primitive man could have imagined that he could make such beautiful physics that leds to something as simple and elegent while complicated and mundane as evolution.. i praise God by seeking the truths he has for us to find with science and i am not so blasphemous as ancient men, especially since i am a woman, to suppose that i or any other men have known what God is limited in doing... and the more science find out the more the fundamentals are mysterious and fascinating and show glory to the creator of this elegent universe that allowed this magnificent evolution of all life.. .just hope we humans, don't keep screwing up the works <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->Quote: Its premise is that God is unnecessary to explain the universe.It also ,of course, negates taking The Bible's history of creation literally and thereby discounts it as a serious witness to the origins of any species of plant, animal, humankind or thing.
without God, you would not have existance so it actually shows more so his necessity... as for the bible creation story.. it is just a story... just like science has shown that mental illness is not caused by demon possesion and pathological diseases are caused by bateria and viruses and body malfunctions and not punishments by God... stars and planets are not omens but have scientifically explainable paths due to gravitational forces... we can take the lessons on how to be a good person and live a good kind charitable forgiving life from the bible but we don't have to believe all the fanciful stories written by uneducated and sometimes ignorant and maybe even sometimes delusional men.
Quote:All of that is done without a scintilla of evidence that hydrogen gas turns itself into stars, planets, oceans, land, tomatoes , trees , mountains and humans.
take a science course there is a mound of evidence.
Quote:Biological evolution , simply put (which evolutionists are loathe to do), is that hydrogen gas evolved into a planet with oceans which somehow developed amino acids, which somehow, after billions of years,
you got that all wrong.. cosmic evolution says that big bang produced the unverse, space and time itself and hydrogen and gravity caused them to clump into stars and that gravity compression forces cause hydrogen to fuse int helium and other phsyics cause some stars at some points of fuel exhuastion to explode and produce the heavier elements and then those fuse into planets and if the conditions are right like on earth, then God brilliant glorious physics allows molecules and lo and behold those essential for primoridal life to be created... and some of those are proteins needed for cell structure and enzymes for converting smaller molecules into more complicated ones, and dna and rna, and walla... life... and changes in dna and selective forces create a diversity of life and hence the natural selection of more and more evolved forms of life... it is quite beautiful and MY God gave us this system that led to us to understand it and it is blasphemous to lie and deny it just because you did not learn the science or do the experiments to understand it... God is far above the petty men that wrote the books of the world religions and the intolerance and narrow mindedness of religions are creations of men not God.
Quote: combined to produce a living cell of pond scum; that pond scum reproduced and multiplied and eventually evolved and improved itself into fish,frogs,crocodiles,dinosuars,horses,chimpanzees,... and Jesus Christ Himself.
you bet ya! and the fact that Jesus existed does save us cause it gives us hope that even at this imperfect stage of evolutionary mess we waring spiting brainwashed humans are at... a perfect kind divine soul like Jesus could exist and exists for all of us to find for ourself.
Quote:One solitary scum.
And this has been Christened as "SCIENCE".
It is one of the most earnest religions I know. Its adherents exercize more faith in its tenets than most Christians do in the tenets of Jesus.
Such faith is obviously blind; it is a desperate attempt to dethrone God and usurp Him with a cloud of gas, the father of all, now worshipped as "Science".
Talk about hot air !
you dethrone God by denying the natural world as he created it as we can now discern by being brainwashed and blinded by milenia old ignorant men's words in books.
Quote:Of course, Science textbooks change every year. Compare a Science textbook from 1900 to one printed this year, then compare one from 1800, and tell me that in the year 2500, we will still read and hold the same theories proposed today. The one thing science documents is constant change in science.
of course science changes, as we develop more technology and knowledge and geniuses find otherwise unresolved clues to the nature that God created as he created it and not as ignorant milenia old men GUESSED how he created it.
Quote:Nothing wrong with that; but lets not confuse science with "The Truth". He whose name is "The Truth" does not change, neither does His word. The book of Genesis today is the same as the book Jesus quoted 2000 years ago :
I agree that the ONLY TRUTH EVER and probably FOREVER are the teachings of Jesus of how we should be in our deeds, thoughts, actions, heart and soul... it is the only truth for us humans, everything else is just deductions from our senses that we reason and knowledge as best our ability.
Quote:Mr 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.Mr 10:6 (BYZ) apo de archv ktisewv arsen kai yhlu epoihsen autouv o yeov
Mr 10:6 (MUR) But, from the beginning, God made them a male and a female.
0hl0 Nwn0 db9 0tbqnw 0rkd Nyd ty$rb Nm Mr 10:6 (PESHITTA)
Mt. 19:4 (AV) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
4 (BYZ) o de apokriyeiv eipen autoiv ouk anegnwte oti o poihsav ap archv arsen kai yhlu epoihsen autouv
4 (MUR) And he answered and said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made them at the beginning, made them a male and a female?
Nwn0 db9 0tbqnw 0rkd ty$rb Nm db9d whd Nwtyrq 0l Nwhl rm0w 0n9 Nyd wh 4 (PESHITTA)
Mt 19:5 (AV) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
5 (BYZ) kai eipen eneken toutou kataleiqei anyrwpov ton patera autou kai thn mhtera kai proskollhyhsetai th gunaiki autou kai esontai oi duo eiv sarka mian
5 (MUR) And he said: For this reason, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and adhere to his wife; and they two shall be one flesh.
rsb dx Nwhyrt Nwwhnw httn0 Pqnw hm0lw yhwb0l 0rbg qwb$n 0nh l+m rm0w 5 (PESHITTA)
yeh... so someone wrote that... its nice.. religion should help us to learn from our ancestors and hopefully the best in humanity, but it should not blind us to real TRUTHS.
Quote:We have Genesis Dead Sea scrolls 2000 years old. They read the same as what Jesus read, according to the NT Aramaic and Greek texts of Matthew and Mark quoted above.
First of all, Jesus accepted the accuracy of Genesis and quoted it as authoritative truth about the creation of man.
Well, his upbringing and knowledge was human so of cousre he believed what the people of his time believed, but his heart and soul was divine so things of the spirit he was the Truth.. he would tell you now forsake this material world for the kindgom of God is not here in our books or earth... they are in the essence of what makes us good and therein God lies and that is where Jesus found him and brought him to us.
Quote:
Secondly, Jesus said "God made them male and female from the beginning", meaning man was created at the beginning of creation.
"The beginning" refers to the six days of creation, as related in Genesis. Whether the first or the sixth day (man created on the 6th), both are referred to as "the beginning". How could that be, if creation was already 14 billion years old when man was created, as evolution teaches ?
If "the beginning" had more than one general sense than that used in Genesis 1:1 , Jesus would have elucidated it. He assumes the existence of man "from the beginning" elsewhere as well :
Mt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Jesus' quotes from Genesis here carry more weight for me than all the Evolution textbooks ever written and Darwin's Origin of Species combined.
How about you ?
Jesus speaks to my heart and not my science so I listen to how he tells me how I should be and not how my science should be... he was a simple man who dealt with humanity and psychology, not science and engineering... so I can completely separate the two. How about you?
Shushan