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Mattai 15:23 - big proof? Younan Interlinear in error?
#1
I think Paul Younan has made a big error in his translation of Matthew 15:23. I see a very big proof here. The Apostles say to "release/free" the woman. Greeks interpret it as "send her away" but the Semitic thought could be positive or negative. Negative as in "cut her loose, send her away" or positive as in "free her! begin! heal her!". This fits perfectly with the next verses where Jesus seems to reject what they want. i.e. they wanted Him to heal her and He said no.

Not only is this possibly a big mistake that Paul now knows to correct, BUT it also is a big proof for Aramaic primacy as the Greeks got it completely wrong.

Regards,

Chris, glad to be a dog who eats of the crumbs from the table
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Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?
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#2
Murdock has: "Send her away for she crieth after us."

Otto
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#3
Yes, in fact as far as I know, ALL translations have this negative reading, similar to other big mistakes like "why have you forsaken me" and "the husband of Mary". What I am basically saying is that the Aramaic can have both positive and negative meanings, and given the context, it is the positive meaning that should be seen, even though it may make Jesus look nasty. But to be honest, the whole "non-Jews are dogs" thing sounds nasty anyway! So it surely won't harm Jesus' image to interpret this as the positive manner, which makes sense of the next few verses.
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#4
Actually the Greek says "free" rather than "send" also, like the Aramaic, so it is not co much a Zorba error, just an error from the translators into English, whether from Greek or Aramaic NT.
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#5
byrnesey Wrote:I think Paul Younan has made a big error in his translation of Matthew 15:23. I see a very big proof here. The Apostles say to "release/free" the woman. Greeks interpret it as "send her away" but the Semitic thought could be positive or negative. Negative as in "cut her loose, send her away" or positive as in "free her! begin! heal her!". This fits perfectly with the next verses where Jesus seems to reject what they want. i.e. they wanted Him to heal her and He said no.

Not only is this possibly a big mistake that Paul now knows to correct, BUT it also is a big proof for Aramaic primacy as the Greeks got it completely wrong.

Regards,

Chris, glad to be a dog who eats of the crumbs from the table

Chris,

How is it that you can put your foot in your mouth and not retract your statement with appropriate apologies ?
You seem to know very little Aramaic or Greek, just enough
to be dangerous, and you make these outrageous dogmatic statements and try to correct an Aramaic expert (Paul) with your puny knowledge of Aramaic and seemingly punier knowledge of Greek !

Both languages have double meanings for many words; that is the case in Mat. 15:23 with "[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]yr$[/font]" from "[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0r$[/font]", and "apoluo". They each can mean "release" or "send away" or even "divorce".
The woman did not need to be set free; her daughter did !

And your point was... ?


Dave B
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#6
The point was that going by Jesus' following statements, it would seem that "free her" was meant in the positive way, while most people translate it in the negative way of "send her away".
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#7
i.e. perhaps the Apostles were asking Yeshua to free her of her troubles, and Yeshua said "no! she is not a Jew!".

btw why the sudden hostility?
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#8
byrnesey Wrote:I think Paul Younan has made a big error in his translation of Matthew 15:23. I see a very big proof here

Quote:Not only is this possibly a big mistake that Paul now knows to correct, BUT it also is a big proof for Aramaic primacy as the Greeks got it completely wrong.
Chris (or Rich),

You have made a big mistake and have not retracted it.
You cannot show that Paul has made a big error. At best you may suggest a possible alternative translation -"release her", as a legitimate meaning of the Aramaic "[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0r$[/font]" .
You then proceeded to site this as a "very big proof". Proof of what ? You have corrected Paul and all Greek mss. and then discovered you were wrong to do so, yet you cannot say you were wrong.
This is so much grandstanding, Chris, and blowhardism. It calls all that you have done into question in the minds of the uninitiated, and could discredit Peshitta Primacy for some because you jump the gun and shoot from the hip on a regular basis.
You show very little respect for others far more learned than you, (especially Paul and Zorba) in your attempts to discredit them and showcase your overblown ego.

My hostility is directed at frauds and blowhards, especially professing Christians who claim to instruct others in the way of truth. If that describes you, so be it, I am against you.

You have published a book on your web site that is basically plagiarized from Paul Younan by giving the impression most of it is your material. You also did it apparently without permission. I know what I'm talking about, because you did it with my material, inserting your outrageous views of the Hebrew Bible and putting them in my mouth. You never sent me a copy to preview.
I had to demand that you correct it, which you were loathe to do and slow to comply.
Even now I do not like that you have left those statements in and tried to delineate by putting my name afterward. I think it still may confuse some.



Dave B.
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#9
You have grossly misjudged me.

""You have made a big mistake and have not retracted it.""

I did retract, did you not see my follow-up post that I was wrong about the Greek, as I saw the double meaning also?


""You cannot show that Paul has made a big error. At best you may suggest a possible alternative translation -"release her", as a legitimate meaning of the Aramaic "0r$" .""

I don't claim Paul made an error, I simply believe that there may be a better rendition. But I never think I know it better than Paul, that would just be stupid.

""You then proceeded to site this as a "very big proof". Proof of what ? You have corrected Paul and all Greek mss. and then discovered you were wrong to do so, yet you cannot say you were wrong.""

Already answered. I know I was wrong and I corrected it in the follow-up post.

""You have published a book on your web site that is basically plagiarized from Paul Younan by giving the impression most of it is your material.""

I cannot stand such lies, especially when they were started by "the other". If you actually READ the book, it says that most of the internal proofs come from others, such as PAUL. I give obesisance to him constantly in the book. This harsh misjudgement of me is not fair. I also give acknowledgement to many others, including yourself.

""You also did it apparently without permission.""

??? Whose permission do I need to compare Bible texts and talk about them?!?!
""I know what I'm talking about, because you did it with my material, inserting your outrageous views of the Hebrew Bible and putting them in my mouth. You never sent me a copy to preview.""

That is an outright lie. When you contacted me saying that you liked what I did, but wanted that part removed, I removed it and sent to you by email. And there were many emails I sent to you in reply, that you seem not to have received. That is not my problem. I even told you on this forum how many times I emailed you and you did not receive. I guess a lot of your hostility comes from that. Well I can honestly say I responded to each and every one of your emails. Also, if you actually go and read the book, you will see that that part has been removed long ago.

""I had to demand that you correct it, which you were loathe to do and slow to comply.""

See above.

""Even now I do not like that you have left those statements in and tried to delineate by putting my name afterward. I think it still may confuse some.""

Again, please stop lying about me. Actually LOOK at the book and you see the comments are gone.

Regards,

Chris
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#10
Here is my alleged plaigarism, from page 5:

""Acknowledgements: While I have worked hard on this project, most of the internal evidences were discovered or supplied to me by various people. The largest contributor (who also has overseen, edited and approved much of this book) has been renowned Peshitta translator and Aramaic expert, Paul David Younan, whom has my deepest appreciation for his efforts. Great appreciation is also given to my brother, Andrew Gabriel Roth, Aramaic and Hebrew expert, and former contributor to the Aramaic Bible Society, who has been such a help in the creation of this book and has supplied many of the proofs. Great thanks is also given to the following without whom this work would not have been possible: Larry Kelsey, Dr. James Trimm, Steve Caruso, Joseph Viel, Rob Vanhoff, Dr. George Lamsa, Glenn David Bauscher, Valentin Sanz Gonzalez, the many critics of the Bible who supply contradictions in the Greek texts (that we demonstrate are lacking in the Peshitta), and of course, Y???shua (Jesus/Joshua), Alaha Abba (God the Father) Himself. If anyone has been left out, I apologise ??? just be content that you have helped make this comprehensive work that will bring people closer to the true Word of God.""


The book might as well be called "I love Paul and accept his linguistic teachings wholeheartedly".

I am such an evil moronic blowhard aren't I?

Regards,

Rich
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#11
Rich,

Since you admit you didn't get permission to use Paul's material and other material posted on this site from others, you show your unethical behavior.
(You inserted the word , "evil", not I).

I see you did give credit to those from whom you stole intellectual property. At least you are an honest thief.


Dave B.
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#12
Paul Younan said: "Peshitta Aramaic/English Interlinear New Testament. Any part of this publication may be used or reproduced in any manner whatsoever without any prior permission."

Firthermore, it was Paul who ASKED me to compile the split words article. From that, I made articles (of which Paul directly approved and supported many) of all the proof types, which formed the spine of the current book.

Come on Dave B, we are all brothers here.

Regards,

Rich
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#13
I forgive you by the way for making lies about me. I am not one to hold grudges. We are all united by the bond of Peshitta/o primacy and should not let anything interfere with that, especially not opinions and beliefs. I respect your work and see it is a great work for Aramaic primacy. I have been nothing but cordial to you, though you so often attack me. Just like when you jumped at me with the Sabbath issue and I showed you the root meaning and you had to admit you were wrong and hasty in your judgement of me - and I was always respectful to you then. I am not here to argue etc so please be careful when you choose to attack someone.

Regards,

Rich
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#14
Rich,

I am always careful.
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#15
Rich,

I don't recall admitting you were right about the sabbath.


Dave B
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