02-05-2004, 06:24 PM
Chris,
How is it that you can spew forth your oneness doctrine whereever you think appropriate and chastise Dave for preaching doctrine when he asserts two persons are discussed in 1 Cor. 8:6 ? What doctrine is he preaching by asserting two divine persons are named in this verse-(and they are)?
Your hypocrisy is nauseating.
Your translation is not only very poor and crude, it is badly skewed by your oneness doctrine , as if your doctrine compensates enough for your ignorance of Aramaic to make your translation superior to Murdock and Lamsa.
I will point out for Dave and MGer that Paul here and elsewhere distinguishes between God The Father and The LORD Jesus Christ.
Here he says there is one of each: One God The Father and One Jehovah Jesus The Messiah.
He further distinguishes their divine roles in creation by using different prepositions for each in defining creation's relation to each Divine being.
All things are "from God the Father"- [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Nm[/font],Aramaic; all things are "by Jehovah Jesus Messiah"- [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]dy0b[/font]
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hdy0b Nnx P0w hdy0b lkd 0xy$m 9w$y 0yrm dxw hb Nnxw hnm lkd 0b0 0hl0 wh dx Nlyd Nl 0l0 [/font]1Co 8:6
All things are from The Father , Who created all things by Christ The Son (See also Hebrews 1:2)
Here's Chris's translation that he posted:
Quote:
But to us there is one, God the Father, where all (and we) are from by Lord YHWH Jesus Messiah where all (and we) are from.
Notice that his translation attempts to fuse the Father and Jesus into the same person and says all (and we) are from both. It also omits the second "khad" -"one" before LORD Jesus with the waw consecutive and does not distinguish between the different prepositions "men" and "bayd" used before each of the two names.
Thus he restates "we are from him", which is redundant.
Then the 2 Dave posted:
Quote:
6 (MUR) yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we also by him.
6 (LAMSA) To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
There are seven such pairings of the Father and Christ in a NT verse which designate each as separate beings and Divine , united in nature ,glory, grace and power.
The Murdock translation seems the better of the two.I am disappointed that neither translates [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0yrm[/font] Marya as LORD , Jehovah , or YAHWEH.
Notice also this text does not affirm that there is one Jehovah; It affirms one "Jehovah Jesus The Messiah". The Old Testament does not affirm that there is one Jehovah. It affirms that Yahweh Elohinu , Yahweh is One-"ekhad". Deut. 6:4
Three questions:
1.How many times is the Divine Name or Title written in this verse ?
2. What is the number of Hebrew word "Elohim" , singular or plural ?
3. Which of the nine meanings for "one" - "ekhad" , is employed in verse 4?
I count three divine words in verse 4. I see that they are one. I understand that Triunity(three as one) is declared in the very verse that unitarians use to proclaim their doctrine.
I am not done. The Bible does not anywhere proclaim that there is a single God . It proclaims that God "Elohim" is one. There are translations that teach a single person God, such as the T.R. Greek of Mark 12:32.
Mr 12:32 (TR) kai eipen autw o grammateuv kalwv didaskale ep alhyeiav eipav oti eiv estin yeov kai ouk estin allov plhn autou
The Peshitta says:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hnm rbl Nyrx0 tylw wh dxd trm0 0rr$b ybr ryps 0rps wh hl rm0[/font]
There is a major difference between these two versions. The TR text has the Jewish scribe say: "eiv estin yeov", which could mean,
"There is one God" or "God is one". The Aramaic however is unequivocal. It says "He is One". It cannot mean "There is one", for that would be ambiguous; one what ?
"He is one", is unambiguous. The Greek scribe of the Textus Receptus manuscript supplied -Yeon -"Theos" to rename the subject "God".
The Aramaic reveals that this Jewish scribe had God's unity in mind,
not number.
"One" can be a quantity or a quality. The revelation of the Shema, which is the text Jesus here quoted, is a revelation of a Divine quality within an already revealed plural "Elohim"-"Mighty Ones".
Oneness seeks to obliterate all distinctions between The Father as the source of all , including the Son ,(that's why the term "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ") and the Son as the agent and mediator of all things ("through Him are all things")who came forth from His Father (that's why He is called the Son).
Too much doctrine ? Sorry if anyone thinks so. I try to be civil and stick to the original texts. I do believe The Peshitta sheds a lot of light on doctrine and has been twisted to espouse individual agendas which have nothing to do with it.
Grace and Peace,
Dave B
How is it that you can spew forth your oneness doctrine whereever you think appropriate and chastise Dave for preaching doctrine when he asserts two persons are discussed in 1 Cor. 8:6 ? What doctrine is he preaching by asserting two divine persons are named in this verse-(and they are)?
Your hypocrisy is nauseating.
Your translation is not only very poor and crude, it is badly skewed by your oneness doctrine , as if your doctrine compensates enough for your ignorance of Aramaic to make your translation superior to Murdock and Lamsa.
I will point out for Dave and MGer that Paul here and elsewhere distinguishes between God The Father and The LORD Jesus Christ.
Here he says there is one of each: One God The Father and One Jehovah Jesus The Messiah.
He further distinguishes their divine roles in creation by using different prepositions for each in defining creation's relation to each Divine being.
All things are "from God the Father"- [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Nm[/font],Aramaic; all things are "by Jehovah Jesus Messiah"- [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]dy0b[/font]
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hdy0b Nnx P0w hdy0b lkd 0xy$m 9w$y 0yrm dxw hb Nnxw hnm lkd 0b0 0hl0 wh dx Nlyd Nl 0l0 [/font]1Co 8:6
All things are from The Father , Who created all things by Christ The Son (See also Hebrews 1:2)
Here's Chris's translation that he posted:
Quote:
But to us there is one, God the Father, where all (and we) are from by Lord YHWH Jesus Messiah where all (and we) are from.
Notice that his translation attempts to fuse the Father and Jesus into the same person and says all (and we) are from both. It also omits the second "khad" -"one" before LORD Jesus with the waw consecutive and does not distinguish between the different prepositions "men" and "bayd" used before each of the two names.
Thus he restates "we are from him", which is redundant.
Then the 2 Dave posted:
Quote:
6 (MUR) yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we also by him.
6 (LAMSA) To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
There are seven such pairings of the Father and Christ in a NT verse which designate each as separate beings and Divine , united in nature ,glory, grace and power.
The Murdock translation seems the better of the two.I am disappointed that neither translates [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0yrm[/font] Marya as LORD , Jehovah , or YAHWEH.
Notice also this text does not affirm that there is one Jehovah; It affirms one "Jehovah Jesus The Messiah". The Old Testament does not affirm that there is one Jehovah. It affirms that Yahweh Elohinu , Yahweh is One-"ekhad". Deut. 6:4
Three questions:
1.How many times is the Divine Name or Title written in this verse ?
2. What is the number of Hebrew word "Elohim" , singular or plural ?
3. Which of the nine meanings for "one" - "ekhad" , is employed in verse 4?
I count three divine words in verse 4. I see that they are one. I understand that Triunity(three as one) is declared in the very verse that unitarians use to proclaim their doctrine.
I am not done. The Bible does not anywhere proclaim that there is a single God . It proclaims that God "Elohim" is one. There are translations that teach a single person God, such as the T.R. Greek of Mark 12:32.
Mr 12:32 (TR) kai eipen autw o grammateuv kalwv didaskale ep alhyeiav eipav oti eiv estin yeov kai ouk estin allov plhn autou
The Peshitta says:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hnm rbl Nyrx0 tylw wh dxd trm0 0rr$b ybr ryps 0rps wh hl rm0[/font]
There is a major difference between these two versions. The TR text has the Jewish scribe say: "eiv estin yeov", which could mean,
"There is one God" or "God is one". The Aramaic however is unequivocal. It says "He is One". It cannot mean "There is one", for that would be ambiguous; one what ?
"He is one", is unambiguous. The Greek scribe of the Textus Receptus manuscript supplied -Yeon -"Theos" to rename the subject "God".
The Aramaic reveals that this Jewish scribe had God's unity in mind,
not number.
"One" can be a quantity or a quality. The revelation of the Shema, which is the text Jesus here quoted, is a revelation of a Divine quality within an already revealed plural "Elohim"-"Mighty Ones".
Oneness seeks to obliterate all distinctions between The Father as the source of all , including the Son ,(that's why the term "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ") and the Son as the agent and mediator of all things ("through Him are all things")who came forth from His Father (that's why He is called the Son).
Too much doctrine ? Sorry if anyone thinks so. I try to be civil and stick to the original texts. I do believe The Peshitta sheds a lot of light on doctrine and has been twisted to espouse individual agendas which have nothing to do with it.
Grace and Peace,
Dave B