11-28-2003, 05:07 AM
Shlama Rev. Bauscher:
This is getting interesting...
Hebrews 11:1 ???Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen???.
(I think is the most precise definition of Faith found in the Bible, do you agree?)
The example you give about the Mother of Jesus??? ???prove??? of Her virginity... Well, in this particular case the required evidence IS A PHYSICAL ONE, ???scientifically??? (or better, just ???naturally???) available (BTW, there???s a crude description of this ???test??? in the apocryphal Yacob???s Protoevangelion XIX,3).
Besides this, you cannot compare the ???historical??? truth (History IS NOT an ???exact science???) to the Physical, Mathematical or Chemical truth. The ???poetical??? truth is not the same as ???scientifical??? (Poets speak of ???Golden Sun??? or ???Silver Moon???!): Do you really believe that Exodus events happened exactly as in the Hollywood films are shown? (BTW, Where it???s said in the Bible that there were 1,5 million people involved?). Do you really think that Creation was performed in SIX DAYS? Or that Eve was really created from the Adam???s rib? Scientific X-Rays of any male individual wouldn???t support that... And I seriously consider that there???s ANY contradiction between Bible and Science... They simple have different purposes and methods (???Bible teaches not HOW GOES the heaven, but HOW TO GO to the heaven???, St. Augustine ???I believe-said).
Let???s (briefly) examine the other example, about the Resurrection...
1. The apostles and first disciples were ???privileged??? with the EVIDENCE (Or let???s better say, a ???REAL-BUT-MYSTERIOUS-EXPERIENCE???, it seems a German word!) of the Risen Jesus. This ???Evidence???, however, is SUPPORTED BY THE FAITH they already had in Jesus (even if weakened by the ???scandalon??? of the Cross). It???s an iterative issue in the ???Risen Jesus apparitions??? the NOT (immediate) RECOGNITION of Him (Luk 24:16; Joh 20:13;21:4.12; Mt 28,17?). I see this as a sign of what we could call ???the Mystery of the totally new ???META(=beyond)PHYSICAL???condition of Jesus??? (Cf. 1Cor 15:44: [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] 0ynxwr 0rgp[/font], ???spiritual body???): He was ???HIMSELF but not THE SAME??? (in Latin is better said: IPSE non ISDEM Jesus). One wonders: Why Risen Jesus didn???t show Himself to Pilate, Annas, Caiaphas, etc. or to the whole people? The ???evidence??? would compel everybody to believe. It would be a success... Or not?
Miracles ([font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwt0 [/font], which is poorly translated by ???Tekmerion???, only once in Act 1,3 [a ???hapax legomenon???]; GNT uses mostly ???Semeion/a??? which is a closer approach; also ???terata???) are only recognized (???decoded???, to use a familiar word) by people who already have faith... Don???t you know the joke of the Pharisees watching Jesus while walking over the waters? They said: ???See that, this guy claims to be the Son of God, and He don???t even know how to swim!??? :-)
Many people SAW Jesus??? miracles but they interpreted them in a wrong way (Joh 6:26; Mk 12:24) or simply didn???t believed in Him at all (Joh 6:13). The Faith is always a Gift FREELY accepted (or rejected). God always leaves the ???other door??? open... Jesus criticized or didn???t trust those who asked ???signs??? (???proves???) to believe (Mt 12:39;Joh 4:48).
2. That privilege of ???Seeing??? Risen Jesus was strictly reserved to that first generation... ???The rest of us???, the millions believers since that time are included in this text of 1Pe 1:8: ???Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy??? or still better, in the ???Blessing of Jesus??? for those who would ???BELIEVE WITHOUT SEEING??? (Joh 20:28). This is what we got to believe in the Resurrection:
a) The External (historical) Testimony of the Apostolic generation (sealed by their Martyrdom) and, first of all (or combined with),
b) The Internal (spiritual) Testimony of the Roukha dQoudesha. This is a SPIRITUAL EVIDENCE, again NOT MEASURABLE, but REAL. ???the evidence of things not seen...??? Contradiction? No, evidence, but ANOTHER KIND OF EVIDENCE human Science can???t ???touch??? or ???verify???, a necessary action for the Science to perform, otherwise it doesn???t deserve that name (Or are we talking about a ???Pseudoscience????).
The only PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of the Resurrection we have is the EMPTY TOMB (I like better to say OPEN TOMB), It could even be photographed... But this can be ???explained??? in a different way (Mt 28:12-13) by a non believer.
All examples in Heb Chapter 11 begin with ???BY the Faith...??? (PNT: [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwnymhb[/font]: prefix ???B??? = In, with, by...): the Faith was the ???instrument??? or ???cause??? (not the consequence), ???motivation???, ???motor??? for all these mentioned persons to do what they did...
----
Sorry, I have been always very bad in Maths, but even scientifically speaking, in regard of the text searched, as others in the Forum have cleverly pointed out: of WHICH TEXT we are talking about? I???m afraid that this relativizes the seriousness or accuracy of this method applied for searching the alleged codes. And this is very important for SCIENCE, especially Mathematics or Statistics.
You didn???t answer my ???technical curiosity???, about pre- and suffixes of words (are they included in the search?), which in a language such as Aramaic is significant... Otherwise, the result could be qualified as a ???Sophisma imperfectae enumerationis??? (???Imperfect ???incomplete- Enumeration Sophism???), using the Formal Logic terminology.
Finally, I must insist in the DISTINCTION between this Codes stuff and the very important comparative analytical study of texts as a really ???scientifically- applicable to the NT and actually worthwhile for the purpose of this Forum: the Aramaic priority vindication.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwx0b[/font]
Ab. Valentin
This is getting interesting...
Hebrews 11:1 ???Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen???.
(I think is the most precise definition of Faith found in the Bible, do you agree?)
The example you give about the Mother of Jesus??? ???prove??? of Her virginity... Well, in this particular case the required evidence IS A PHYSICAL ONE, ???scientifically??? (or better, just ???naturally???) available (BTW, there???s a crude description of this ???test??? in the apocryphal Yacob???s Protoevangelion XIX,3).
Besides this, you cannot compare the ???historical??? truth (History IS NOT an ???exact science???) to the Physical, Mathematical or Chemical truth. The ???poetical??? truth is not the same as ???scientifical??? (Poets speak of ???Golden Sun??? or ???Silver Moon???!): Do you really believe that Exodus events happened exactly as in the Hollywood films are shown? (BTW, Where it???s said in the Bible that there were 1,5 million people involved?). Do you really think that Creation was performed in SIX DAYS? Or that Eve was really created from the Adam???s rib? Scientific X-Rays of any male individual wouldn???t support that... And I seriously consider that there???s ANY contradiction between Bible and Science... They simple have different purposes and methods (???Bible teaches not HOW GOES the heaven, but HOW TO GO to the heaven???, St. Augustine ???I believe-said).
Let???s (briefly) examine the other example, about the Resurrection...
1. The apostles and first disciples were ???privileged??? with the EVIDENCE (Or let???s better say, a ???REAL-BUT-MYSTERIOUS-EXPERIENCE???, it seems a German word!) of the Risen Jesus. This ???Evidence???, however, is SUPPORTED BY THE FAITH they already had in Jesus (even if weakened by the ???scandalon??? of the Cross). It???s an iterative issue in the ???Risen Jesus apparitions??? the NOT (immediate) RECOGNITION of Him (Luk 24:16; Joh 20:13;21:4.12; Mt 28,17?). I see this as a sign of what we could call ???the Mystery of the totally new ???META(=beyond)PHYSICAL???condition of Jesus??? (Cf. 1Cor 15:44: [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] 0ynxwr 0rgp[/font], ???spiritual body???): He was ???HIMSELF but not THE SAME??? (in Latin is better said: IPSE non ISDEM Jesus). One wonders: Why Risen Jesus didn???t show Himself to Pilate, Annas, Caiaphas, etc. or to the whole people? The ???evidence??? would compel everybody to believe. It would be a success... Or not?
Miracles ([font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwt0 [/font], which is poorly translated by ???Tekmerion???, only once in Act 1,3 [a ???hapax legomenon???]; GNT uses mostly ???Semeion/a??? which is a closer approach; also ???terata???) are only recognized (???decoded???, to use a familiar word) by people who already have faith... Don???t you know the joke of the Pharisees watching Jesus while walking over the waters? They said: ???See that, this guy claims to be the Son of God, and He don???t even know how to swim!??? :-)
Many people SAW Jesus??? miracles but they interpreted them in a wrong way (Joh 6:26; Mk 12:24) or simply didn???t believed in Him at all (Joh 6:13). The Faith is always a Gift FREELY accepted (or rejected). God always leaves the ???other door??? open... Jesus criticized or didn???t trust those who asked ???signs??? (???proves???) to believe (Mt 12:39;Joh 4:48).
2. That privilege of ???Seeing??? Risen Jesus was strictly reserved to that first generation... ???The rest of us???, the millions believers since that time are included in this text of 1Pe 1:8: ???Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy??? or still better, in the ???Blessing of Jesus??? for those who would ???BELIEVE WITHOUT SEEING??? (Joh 20:28). This is what we got to believe in the Resurrection:
a) The External (historical) Testimony of the Apostolic generation (sealed by their Martyrdom) and, first of all (or combined with),
b) The Internal (spiritual) Testimony of the Roukha dQoudesha. This is a SPIRITUAL EVIDENCE, again NOT MEASURABLE, but REAL. ???the evidence of things not seen...??? Contradiction? No, evidence, but ANOTHER KIND OF EVIDENCE human Science can???t ???touch??? or ???verify???, a necessary action for the Science to perform, otherwise it doesn???t deserve that name (Or are we talking about a ???Pseudoscience????).
The only PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of the Resurrection we have is the EMPTY TOMB (I like better to say OPEN TOMB), It could even be photographed... But this can be ???explained??? in a different way (Mt 28:12-13) by a non believer.
All examples in Heb Chapter 11 begin with ???BY the Faith...??? (PNT: [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwnymhb[/font]: prefix ???B??? = In, with, by...): the Faith was the ???instrument??? or ???cause??? (not the consequence), ???motivation???, ???motor??? for all these mentioned persons to do what they did...
----
Sorry, I have been always very bad in Maths, but even scientifically speaking, in regard of the text searched, as others in the Forum have cleverly pointed out: of WHICH TEXT we are talking about? I???m afraid that this relativizes the seriousness or accuracy of this method applied for searching the alleged codes. And this is very important for SCIENCE, especially Mathematics or Statistics.
You didn???t answer my ???technical curiosity???, about pre- and suffixes of words (are they included in the search?), which in a language such as Aramaic is significant... Otherwise, the result could be qualified as a ???Sophisma imperfectae enumerationis??? (???Imperfect ???incomplete- Enumeration Sophism???), using the Formal Logic terminology.
Finally, I must insist in the DISTINCTION between this Codes stuff and the very important comparative analytical study of texts as a really ???scientifically- applicable to the NT and actually worthwhile for the purpose of this Forum: the Aramaic priority vindication.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwx0b[/font]
Ab. Valentin