04-20-2017, 03:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2017, 04:42 PM by gregglaser.)
Thank you for the comment. I think this is a fascinating topic, and a great opportunity to learn about ourselves and this gift of life ܥܠܡ from our Creator.
I would say that in the strictly literal Peshitta, the Messiah’s promise for the chosen is to receive life "to a world/age" ܠܥܠܡ in Him. That is no small thing - to be born from the head into an entire new world/age. And then continual living is “world/age to world/age”, which you can only do if you stay in Yahshua. Indeed, in the special case of the Father (and those who stay in the Father, namely, the Son), the literal text is ܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ (“world/age worlds/ages continually”).
Nowhere does the Peshitta say 'once saved, always saved' or 'it is impossible to fall from grace'.
Moreover, “eternal” is a different word/phrase entirely ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ (“no time”) because it refers to living outside the time dimension or outside the existence of time. So ܥܠܡ does not mean ‘eternal’ in literal Aramaic. For example, eternal (outside time) is a non-literal translation because it attempts to defy the root word ܥܠܡ. If something (a root) starts off as one thing (i.e., a wheat seed, a word, a deer, a world/age ܥܠܡ), it cannot become infinite ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ (“time without end”), just by conjugating ܥܠܡ or rotating it or making it plural. Words don't work that way in any language. We have to build on what we have and a word cannot be separated from its context. Some fun examples
A potato on earth multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an indestructible potato throughout all space in the universe. Or, can a potato or a planet be rotated into a timeless dimension? A deer in Kansas multiplied by ten does not become infinity deer throughout multiverses. A world/age multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an infinite universe of worlds. However, flesh born into a world can survive death and be reborn in a new world/age. But to say that 'flesh born into a world becomes infinitely indestructible' is to say something the bible does not say.
And the same analysis applies to eternal (outside time). Worlds/ages are inherently time-based. Physics also shows that time is simply perceived order among exchanges of energy. But in any case, the fact that we experience Yahweh through time and space is quite revealing of our relationship with Him. To seek a timeless world/age would be to live in something different than the root word ܥܠܡ. If the gospel was describing an existence outside time, then different words would be required, such as ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ (“no time”) or ܠܝܬ ܥܕܢܐ ("not having time") or ܥܕܢܐ ܠܒܪ ("outside time").
Regarding your question about spirit being potentially immortal? I would respectfully say ‘not literally’. I would say Yahweh created everything, including time and spirits, and He can destroy anything He wants.
“And Yahweh Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7. “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4; repeated again in verse 20.
Nowhere in the Bible do we find the term “immortal soul”. The soul is mortal, so it can be destroyed.
If John 3:16 was really promising unending life for all of space & time, then the text should use the same wording we see elsewhere to describe YHWH, such as Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended." The psalmist said it about YHWH. It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek. Yet we can't find such a statement in any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.
Isaiah 65:17-20, "For behold, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart…. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."
“I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me." Isaiah 43:10
There are also countless verses describing the destruction of the lost, and that the spirit returns to Yahweh. I like this one in particular, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to אלהימ who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
John 3:16 was a promise in a limited context (“to a world/age”), and indeed in many respects it was an earthly & temporal context, as we read the fuller passage in John 3:12 (“If about this world I have told you and you do not believe, how if I speak to you about heaven will you believe?”) and then from John 3:14 all the way through John 3:21, all of the examples continue to be worldly, especially the first one, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus the Son of Man is prepared to be lifted up so that any man who believes in Him will not destruct but will have life that is to a world/age. For thus, Alha loved to this world/age so likewise He gives His unique Son, that whoever is believing in Him does not destruct but will be to him life that is to a world/age. For Alha did not send His Son into this world to condemn to this world/age but that life to this world/age through Him.”
Simply, John 3:16 is in harmony with the rest of the gospel. It does not stand alone as an implied or assumed promise that souls are eternal because YHWH somehow cannot destroy souls. Notably, Greeks & Egyptians & Pharisees believed every soul was eternal. They believed in both everlasting torment and everlasting life. Remember, in John 3:16, the Messiah is speaking with a Pharisee (Nicodemus) who does not understand the rebirth concept (“Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these?”)
So it is quite important to acknowledge John 3:16 does not stand alone as a promise that YHWH cannot destroy souls, but rather John 3:16 is in complete harmony with the remainder of the gospel, including for example the passages above John 11:24-27, John 8:51-52, John 10:27-29. In all of these passages, promises of life are limited "to a world/age". And conspicuously absent from these promises is any reference to "beyond" a world/age, because "beyond" is only used in reference to YHWH. That's a key point, fundamental really.
Let’s discuss Hebrew roots too... given the seriousness of the matter at issue here, if עולמ ever meant 'everlasting' then there should be some statement in scripture defining it clearly as a time period that does not end or that cannot end. I have never found any such statement in the bible, ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ (“time without end”).
Indeed, עולמ frequently refers to a short time period, such as in Jonah 2:6. "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me לעולמ yet You have brought up my life from the pit, YHVH, my Elohim."
In this case of Jonah, עולמ meant only three days, which shows its true meaning is finite (often simply a world/age beyond the horizon to the observer).
There are countless examples where עולמ refers to a definite/limited period of time that could not logically be everlasting or eternal. See e.g., Exodus 21:6 "then hath his lord brought him nigh unto Elohim, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him — to the age."
Indeed, עולמ can only be understood in context. I think the Hebrew/Aramaic language itself makes that plain, even though the Israelites often disagreed on interpretations. For example, many Pharisees preached everlasting souls just like the Greek mystics did.
Consider this modern translation (KJV) of Psalm 45:6: "Thy throne, O God, [is] age-during and for ever עולמ ועד, A sceptre of uprightness [Is] the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
The King James Version incorrectly translates עולמ ועד as "for ever and ever," which would not be logical because the Bible uses this same Hebrew phrase, עולמ ועד, in Exodus 15:18 (perhaps best translated as YHVH reigns — to the age, and beyond)'. If עולמ meant "forever" by itself, why do we find constructs (such as ועד) which tell us there is a "beyond" this "forever," as in Exodus 15:18.
As we see throughout the bible, עד simply means 'continuing' or 'during'. It does not mean perpetual by itself, let alone 'everlasting' or 'forever'. Indeed, עד is/was a finite temporal word used in normal everyday Hebrew speech. It also means "witness" – the word is indeed grounded in reality.
I would venture that as witnesses today, we have not experienced infinity or eternal. Rather, at our best we only experience/witness perpetual systems. I think the bible is teaching us that lesson when we read it literally, to be honest witnesses of our perspectives given to us, rather than perspectives outside of our horizon.
As for the Hebrew/Aramaic word עולמ (olam), it is inherently grounded in the humility of the observer. That's the traditional Hebrew perspective.
I would say that in the strictly literal Peshitta, the Messiah’s promise for the chosen is to receive life "to a world/age" ܠܥܠܡ in Him. That is no small thing - to be born from the head into an entire new world/age. And then continual living is “world/age to world/age”, which you can only do if you stay in Yahshua. Indeed, in the special case of the Father (and those who stay in the Father, namely, the Son), the literal text is ܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ (“world/age worlds/ages continually”).
Nowhere does the Peshitta say 'once saved, always saved' or 'it is impossible to fall from grace'.
Moreover, “eternal” is a different word/phrase entirely ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ (“no time”) because it refers to living outside the time dimension or outside the existence of time. So ܥܠܡ does not mean ‘eternal’ in literal Aramaic. For example, eternal (outside time) is a non-literal translation because it attempts to defy the root word ܥܠܡ. If something (a root) starts off as one thing (i.e., a wheat seed, a word, a deer, a world/age ܥܠܡ), it cannot become infinite ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ (“time without end”), just by conjugating ܥܠܡ or rotating it or making it plural. Words don't work that way in any language. We have to build on what we have and a word cannot be separated from its context. Some fun examples
A potato on earth multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an indestructible potato throughout all space in the universe. Or, can a potato or a planet be rotated into a timeless dimension? A deer in Kansas multiplied by ten does not become infinity deer throughout multiverses. A world/age multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an infinite universe of worlds. However, flesh born into a world can survive death and be reborn in a new world/age. But to say that 'flesh born into a world becomes infinitely indestructible' is to say something the bible does not say.And the same analysis applies to eternal (outside time). Worlds/ages are inherently time-based. Physics also shows that time is simply perceived order among exchanges of energy. But in any case, the fact that we experience Yahweh through time and space is quite revealing of our relationship with Him. To seek a timeless world/age would be to live in something different than the root word ܥܠܡ. If the gospel was describing an existence outside time, then different words would be required, such as ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ (“no time”) or ܠܝܬ ܥܕܢܐ ("not having time") or ܥܕܢܐ ܠܒܪ ("outside time").
Regarding your question about spirit being potentially immortal? I would respectfully say ‘not literally’. I would say Yahweh created everything, including time and spirits, and He can destroy anything He wants.
“And Yahweh Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7. “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4; repeated again in verse 20.
- Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
- Lev. 23:30 “The same soul will I destroy”
- Joshua 10:35 “The souls that were therein he destroyed”
- Psalm 22:29 “None can keep alive his own soul”
- Psalm 78:50 “Spared not their soul from death”
- Psalm 89:48 “Deliver his soul from the hand of the grave”
- Ezekiel 22:27 “Destroy souls”
Nowhere in the Bible do we find the term “immortal soul”. The soul is mortal, so it can be destroyed.
If John 3:16 was really promising unending life for all of space & time, then the text should use the same wording we see elsewhere to describe YHWH, such as Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended." The psalmist said it about YHWH. It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek. Yet we can't find such a statement in any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.
Isaiah 65:17-20, "For behold, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart…. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."
“I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me." Isaiah 43:10
There are also countless verses describing the destruction of the lost, and that the spirit returns to Yahweh. I like this one in particular, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to אלהימ who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
John 3:16 was a promise in a limited context (“to a world/age”), and indeed in many respects it was an earthly & temporal context, as we read the fuller passage in John 3:12 (“If about this world I have told you and you do not believe, how if I speak to you about heaven will you believe?”) and then from John 3:14 all the way through John 3:21, all of the examples continue to be worldly, especially the first one, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus the Son of Man is prepared to be lifted up so that any man who believes in Him will not destruct but will have life that is to a world/age. For thus, Alha loved to this world/age so likewise He gives His unique Son, that whoever is believing in Him does not destruct but will be to him life that is to a world/age. For Alha did not send His Son into this world to condemn to this world/age but that life to this world/age through Him.”
Simply, John 3:16 is in harmony with the rest of the gospel. It does not stand alone as an implied or assumed promise that souls are eternal because YHWH somehow cannot destroy souls. Notably, Greeks & Egyptians & Pharisees believed every soul was eternal. They believed in both everlasting torment and everlasting life. Remember, in John 3:16, the Messiah is speaking with a Pharisee (Nicodemus) who does not understand the rebirth concept (“Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these?”)
So it is quite important to acknowledge John 3:16 does not stand alone as a promise that YHWH cannot destroy souls, but rather John 3:16 is in complete harmony with the remainder of the gospel, including for example the passages above John 11:24-27, John 8:51-52, John 10:27-29. In all of these passages, promises of life are limited "to a world/age". And conspicuously absent from these promises is any reference to "beyond" a world/age, because "beyond" is only used in reference to YHWH. That's a key point, fundamental really.
Let’s discuss Hebrew roots too... given the seriousness of the matter at issue here, if עולמ ever meant 'everlasting' then there should be some statement in scripture defining it clearly as a time period that does not end or that cannot end. I have never found any such statement in the bible, ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ (“time without end”).
Indeed, עולמ frequently refers to a short time period, such as in Jonah 2:6. "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me לעולמ yet You have brought up my life from the pit, YHVH, my Elohim."
In this case of Jonah, עולמ meant only three days, which shows its true meaning is finite (often simply a world/age beyond the horizon to the observer).
There are countless examples where עולמ refers to a definite/limited period of time that could not logically be everlasting or eternal. See e.g., Exodus 21:6 "then hath his lord brought him nigh unto Elohim, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him — to the age."
Indeed, עולמ can only be understood in context. I think the Hebrew/Aramaic language itself makes that plain, even though the Israelites often disagreed on interpretations. For example, many Pharisees preached everlasting souls just like the Greek mystics did.
Consider this modern translation (KJV) of Psalm 45:6: "Thy throne, O God, [is] age-during and for ever עולמ ועד, A sceptre of uprightness [Is] the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
The King James Version incorrectly translates עולמ ועד as "for ever and ever," which would not be logical because the Bible uses this same Hebrew phrase, עולמ ועד, in Exodus 15:18 (perhaps best translated as YHVH reigns — to the age, and beyond)'. If עולמ meant "forever" by itself, why do we find constructs (such as ועד) which tell us there is a "beyond" this "forever," as in Exodus 15:18.
As we see throughout the bible, עד simply means 'continuing' or 'during'. It does not mean perpetual by itself, let alone 'everlasting' or 'forever'. Indeed, עד is/was a finite temporal word used in normal everyday Hebrew speech. It also means "witness" – the word is indeed grounded in reality.
I would venture that as witnesses today, we have not experienced infinity or eternal. Rather, at our best we only experience/witness perpetual systems. I think the bible is teaching us that lesson when we read it literally, to be honest witnesses of our perspectives given to us, rather than perspectives outside of our horizon.
As for the Hebrew/Aramaic word עולמ (olam), it is inherently grounded in the humility of the observer. That's the traditional Hebrew perspective.