03-07-2009, 03:44 AM
Shlama to you Kara,
I don't like your tone. I never said "plagiarized. How do you "plagiarize" without copyright? But one source was co-opted by the other, and I wasn't suggesting anything deceptive either--but that there was more influence between early Jews, Nazarenes and Christians than has previously been supposed. Such is the nature of some fairly recent Talmudic scholarship. One such work that I looked at for my research about 5years ago was called "Christianity the Talmud and Midrash", <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Midrash-AUGMENTED-TRAVERS-HERFORD/dp/0881259306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236396718&sr=1-1">http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Midr ... 718&sr=1-1</a><!-- m -->. You can also find a related article in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, January 7, 2004 by Neal Altman called "Support for the authenticity of Matthew comes from an unlikely place".
In any case, the earliest forms of these statements are in the Gospels, and then they show up in Rabbinic literature.
The Talmud does in fact though incorporate large portions of Y'shua's teachings. That is a fact. I have the citations in my first book. The Talmud was compiled about the year 200 CE,with other sections of course reaching finished form in the Middle Ages. Either way, this is long past the time of the Gospels.
Oh, and here is what I mean by LARGE PORTIONS:
"There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."
Matthew 10:26
Hillel says, " . . . do not say anything which cannot be heard, for in the end, it will be heard."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:4
Now a man came up to Yeshua and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Yeshua replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-17
[Hillel] would say, ". . . [If] he has gotten teachings of Torah, he has gotten for himself life eternal.]
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:7
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
Matthew 6:7-8
R. Simeon says, "Be meticulous in the recitation of the shema and the Prayer. And when you pray, don't treat your praying as a matter of routine. But let it be a [plea for] mercy and supplication before the Omnipresent, blessed be he."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:13
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Matthew 18:20
R. Hananiah b. Teradion says, "[If] two sit together and between them do not pass teachings of Torah, lo, this is a seat of the scornful (Ps. 1:1). But two who are sitting, and words of Torah do pass between them - the Presence is with them, as it is said. Then they that feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD hearkened and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him, for them that feared the LORD and gave thought to His name (Mal. 3:16). I know that this applies to two.
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 3:2
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Matthew 11:28-30
R. Nehunya b. Haqqaneh says, "From whomever accepts upon himself the yoke of the Torah do they remove the yoke of the state and the yoke of hard labor."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot, 3:5
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27
R. Jonathan b. Joseph said: . . .[the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands.
Yoma 85b
The Sabbath is given over to you, and not you to the Sabbath
Mekilta on Exodus 31:13 (109b), cited in The New Testament Background, C.K. Barret
"Which is lawful to do on the Sabbath, to do good or to do evil, to save life, or to kill?
Mark 3:4
R. Ishmael, R. Akiba and R. Eleazar b. Azariah were once on a journey, with Levi ha-Saddar and R. Ishmael son of R. Eleazar b. Azariah following them. Then this question was asked of them: Whence do we know that in the case of danger to human life the laws of the Sabbath are suspended? ??? R. Ishmael answered and said: If a thief be found breaking in. Now if in the case of this one it is doubtful whether he has come to take money or life; and although the shedding of blood pollutes the land, so that the Shechinah departs from Israel, yet it is lawful to save oneself at the cost of his life ??? how much more may one suspend the laws of the Sabbath to save human life! R. Akiba answered and said: If a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour etc. thou shalt take him from My altar, that he may die.22 I.e., only off the altar, but not down from the altar.23 And in connection therewith Rabbah b. Bar Hana said in the name of R. Johanan: That was taught only when one's life is to be forfeited,but to save life one may take one down even from the altar. Now if in the case of this one, where it is doubtful whether there is any substance in his words or not, yet [he interrupts] the service in the Temple [which is important enough to] suspend the Sabbath, how much more should the saving of human life suspend the Sabbath laws!
Talmud - Mas. Yoma 85a-b
Yeshua said to them, "I did one miracle and you are all astonished. Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? Stop judging be mere appearances and make a right judgement."
John 7:21-24
R. Eleazar answered and said: If circumcision, which attaches to one only of the two hundred and forty-eight members of the human body, suspends the Sabbath, how much more shall [the saving of] the whole body suspend the Sabbath!
Yoma 85b
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matthew 7:24-27
R. Eleazar ben Azariah: "One whose wisdom exceeds his deeds unto what is he compared? Unto a tree [which] the branches thereof are many and the roots few, so that when the wind comes, it uproots it and overturns it upon its face, as it is said, for he shall be like a tamarisk in the desert and shall not see when good comes, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited. But one whose deeds exceed his wisdom, unto what is he compared? Unto a tree the branches therefore are few, and the roots many, so that even if all the winds in the world come and blow upon it, they do not move it from its place, as it is said, for he shall be as a tree planted by the waters and that spreads its roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but its foliage shall be luxuriant, and shall not be anxious in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 3:17
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. . . " Matthew 22:2
And:
"What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it?"
Mark 4:30, Cf. Luke 13:18, 20
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "To what may this be likened? To a king who made a banquet..."
"He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . ."
Matthew 22:3
R. Judah ha-Nasi: " . . . a king . . . made a banquet to which he invited guests. . . "
"He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . ."
Matthew 22:3
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "He said to them, ???Go, wash yourselves, brush up your clothes, anoint yourselves with oil, wash your garments, and prepare yourselves for the banquet . . ."
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 25:13
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "[The king] fixed no time when they were to come to [the banquet]. . ."
"The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps."
Matthew 25:4
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "The wise among them walked about by the entrance of the king's palace, saying, ' Does the king's palace lack anything????
"Then [the king] sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
Matthew 22:4
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king's command. They said, ???We will in due course notice when the king's banquet is to take place, because can there be a banquet without labour [to prepare it] and company????
"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business."
Matthew 22:5
R. Judah ha-Nasi: The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king's command. So the plasterer went to his plaster, the potter to his clay, the smith to his charcoal, the washer to his laundry.
???The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. "At midnight the cry rang out: `Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' "`No,' they replied, `there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.???
Matthew 25:5-10
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "Suddenly the king ordered, ' Let them all come to the banquet.??? They hurried the guests, so that some came in their splendid attire and others came in their dirty garments. "
"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. . . "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. `Friend,' he asked, `how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 22:5-14
R. Judah ha Nasi: The king was pleased with the wise ones who had obeyed his command, and also because they had shown honour to the king's palace. He was angry with the fools who had neglected his command and disgraced his palace. The king said, ' Let those who have prepared themselves for the banquet come and eat of the king's meal, but those who have not prepared themselves shall not partake of it.???
I don't like your tone. I never said "plagiarized. How do you "plagiarize" without copyright? But one source was co-opted by the other, and I wasn't suggesting anything deceptive either--but that there was more influence between early Jews, Nazarenes and Christians than has previously been supposed. Such is the nature of some fairly recent Talmudic scholarship. One such work that I looked at for my research about 5years ago was called "Christianity the Talmud and Midrash", <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Midrash-AUGMENTED-TRAVERS-HERFORD/dp/0881259306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236396718&sr=1-1">http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Midr ... 718&sr=1-1</a><!-- m -->. You can also find a related article in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, January 7, 2004 by Neal Altman called "Support for the authenticity of Matthew comes from an unlikely place".
In any case, the earliest forms of these statements are in the Gospels, and then they show up in Rabbinic literature.
The Talmud does in fact though incorporate large portions of Y'shua's teachings. That is a fact. I have the citations in my first book. The Talmud was compiled about the year 200 CE,with other sections of course reaching finished form in the Middle Ages. Either way, this is long past the time of the Gospels.
Oh, and here is what I mean by LARGE PORTIONS:
"There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."
Matthew 10:26
Hillel says, " . . . do not say anything which cannot be heard, for in the end, it will be heard."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:4
Now a man came up to Yeshua and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Yeshua replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-17
[Hillel] would say, ". . . [If] he has gotten teachings of Torah, he has gotten for himself life eternal.]
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:7
"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
Matthew 6:7-8
R. Simeon says, "Be meticulous in the recitation of the shema and the Prayer. And when you pray, don't treat your praying as a matter of routine. But let it be a [plea for] mercy and supplication before the Omnipresent, blessed be he."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:13
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Matthew 18:20
R. Hananiah b. Teradion says, "[If] two sit together and between them do not pass teachings of Torah, lo, this is a seat of the scornful (Ps. 1:1). But two who are sitting, and words of Torah do pass between them - the Presence is with them, as it is said. Then they that feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD hearkened and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him, for them that feared the LORD and gave thought to His name (Mal. 3:16). I know that this applies to two.
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 3:2
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Matthew 11:28-30
R. Nehunya b. Haqqaneh says, "From whomever accepts upon himself the yoke of the Torah do they remove the yoke of the state and the yoke of hard labor."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot, 3:5
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27
R. Jonathan b. Joseph said: . . .[the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands.
Yoma 85b
The Sabbath is given over to you, and not you to the Sabbath
Mekilta on Exodus 31:13 (109b), cited in The New Testament Background, C.K. Barret
"Which is lawful to do on the Sabbath, to do good or to do evil, to save life, or to kill?
Mark 3:4
R. Ishmael, R. Akiba and R. Eleazar b. Azariah were once on a journey, with Levi ha-Saddar and R. Ishmael son of R. Eleazar b. Azariah following them. Then this question was asked of them: Whence do we know that in the case of danger to human life the laws of the Sabbath are suspended? ??? R. Ishmael answered and said: If a thief be found breaking in. Now if in the case of this one it is doubtful whether he has come to take money or life; and although the shedding of blood pollutes the land, so that the Shechinah departs from Israel, yet it is lawful to save oneself at the cost of his life ??? how much more may one suspend the laws of the Sabbath to save human life! R. Akiba answered and said: If a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour etc. thou shalt take him from My altar, that he may die.22 I.e., only off the altar, but not down from the altar.23 And in connection therewith Rabbah b. Bar Hana said in the name of R. Johanan: That was taught only when one's life is to be forfeited,but to save life one may take one down even from the altar. Now if in the case of this one, where it is doubtful whether there is any substance in his words or not, yet [he interrupts] the service in the Temple [which is important enough to] suspend the Sabbath, how much more should the saving of human life suspend the Sabbath laws!
Talmud - Mas. Yoma 85a-b
Yeshua said to them, "I did one miracle and you are all astonished. Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? Stop judging be mere appearances and make a right judgement."
John 7:21-24
R. Eleazar answered and said: If circumcision, which attaches to one only of the two hundred and forty-eight members of the human body, suspends the Sabbath, how much more shall [the saving of] the whole body suspend the Sabbath!
Yoma 85b
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matthew 7:24-27
R. Eleazar ben Azariah: "One whose wisdom exceeds his deeds unto what is he compared? Unto a tree [which] the branches thereof are many and the roots few, so that when the wind comes, it uproots it and overturns it upon its face, as it is said, for he shall be like a tamarisk in the desert and shall not see when good comes, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited. But one whose deeds exceed his wisdom, unto what is he compared? Unto a tree the branches therefore are few, and the roots many, so that even if all the winds in the world come and blow upon it, they do not move it from its place, as it is said, for he shall be as a tree planted by the waters and that spreads its roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but its foliage shall be luxuriant, and shall not be anxious in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 3:17
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. . . " Matthew 22:2
And:
"What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it?"
Mark 4:30, Cf. Luke 13:18, 20
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "To what may this be likened? To a king who made a banquet..."
"He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . ."
Matthew 22:3
R. Judah ha-Nasi: " . . . a king . . . made a banquet to which he invited guests. . . "
"He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . ."
Matthew 22:3
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "He said to them, ???Go, wash yourselves, brush up your clothes, anoint yourselves with oil, wash your garments, and prepare yourselves for the banquet . . ."
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
Matthew 25:13
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "[The king] fixed no time when they were to come to [the banquet]. . ."
"The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps."
Matthew 25:4
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "The wise among them walked about by the entrance of the king's palace, saying, ' Does the king's palace lack anything????
"Then [the king] sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
Matthew 22:4
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king's command. They said, ???We will in due course notice when the king's banquet is to take place, because can there be a banquet without labour [to prepare it] and company????
"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business."
Matthew 22:5
R. Judah ha-Nasi: The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king's command. So the plasterer went to his plaster, the potter to his clay, the smith to his charcoal, the washer to his laundry.
???The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. "At midnight the cry rang out: `Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' "`No,' they replied, `there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.???
Matthew 25:5-10
R. Judah ha-Nasi: "Suddenly the king ordered, ' Let them all come to the banquet.??? They hurried the guests, so that some came in their splendid attire and others came in their dirty garments. "
"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. . . "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. `Friend,' he asked, `how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 22:5-14
R. Judah ha Nasi: The king was pleased with the wise ones who had obeyed his command, and also because they had shown honour to the king's palace. He was angry with the fools who had neglected his command and disgraced his palace. The king said, ' Let those who have prepared themselves for the banquet come and eat of the king's meal, but those who have not prepared themselves shall not partake of it.???
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Andrew Gabriel Roth