09-30-2008, 06:56 PM
Shlama all--
I have heard all of your requests, read them here and through private correspondence. I have also spoken with Paul Younan and think we can and we should move forward from this unpleasant situation. And by move forward, I mean ALL OF US.
So that I can do this in spite of a lot of challenges, I need to clear the air BRIEFLY and not engage in excessive back and forth when wider issues are before us. I hope very much to do so in a sincere and positive manner to everyone here, including Stephen Silver. First though let me share with you a fairly private matter that I have only brought up once in 5+ years.
I am a Nazarene Jew but I am also a fully immersed--yes BAPTIZED--member of the Church of the East. It doesn't mean that I don't believe what I have said or even agree with everything the COE says. It does mean that I have interpreted the call of immersion as a command of both Tanakh and NT and wanted to do it in Aramaic, and I chose the COE for that purpose. The priest who officiated at the baptism was and is of Jewish ancestry. Same for Dean Dana, who was raised more Orthodox than I was and was a witness, along with Paul Younan himself.
Here is why I say this: How can I be "anti-Christian" if I am baptized in an apostolic CHURCH? In explaining this fact I should point out that I am not that different from either Stephen Silver who went from Nazarene belief into the church nor from Dean Dana or Qasha Klutz, who both share my ancestry and were baptized into the COE themselves. Nor am I that different who were baptized in their traditions only to come out of it and become Nazarenes.
The charge that has been laid at my door is that I have condemned Christendom as a whole, but if I really did that, I would condemn myself. After all I fight for what I see as their original vision, do I not?
But let me tell you what I am doing and what Mari does without apology: I fight ERROR. I don't care who says it. Within the pages of Mari to be sure are many criticsims of the RCC, Protestants and many other forms of Christianity. But I also criticize my people: Rabbinics, Karaites, reform-secularists, etc. And yes, I even criticize "Messianic Jews" and NAZARENES in Mari. If you want an NT that doesn't deal with the hurtful facts of history that I feel is needed to understand what was originally said, then Mari is not for you. Better you all know that and not buy it than feel you bought something without understanding. I am consistent in my principles (not perfect, nor is anyone) and will not give those principles up to be popular.
And let me tell you all this: Marcion was a BAD GUY and he deserves all the codemnation he gets. If anyone has a problem with that after having read the history on it, I can't help you. "Christo Pagan" relates to MARCION and others like him, because of what they DID. Or can we not talk about folks like Rabulla but not about those in the West???? If we can talk about one, we can talk about the other.
HOWEVER--that talk is not for today.
Today is Rosh Hashanna and I will shortly resume prayer. It is a time of forgiveness and repentance. It is a time when we beat our breast and beg YHWH to restore us into life in this world and the next.
This forum though also needs restoration back to its root principles, and we are all, myself included, guilty of letting it get off track. Let us get past these differences and move forward with this precious and YHWH-breathed Aramaic text. Let us come together united in the Aramaic Primacy cause (or at least the exploration of it without conclusion). Let us stop the theological bickering and get back to the business at hand.
And I agree we need more moderators, but we also need people to BE MODERATE. I stand ready to take up that mantle and to accept without pre-condition anyone else who does so, including again Stephen Silver. And Stephen, whatever issues you have with Baruch are between the two of you and have NOTHING to do with me. If people have a problem with the Netzari viewpoint they won't like Mari as it is. If people have a mature faith though they can look to it for a point of view that is not found elsewhere. They can agree or disagree with part of all of it and I will have no problem with that at all.
When a person forgives, as I do Stephen Silver, it is for the FORGIVERS' sake as much or more than it is he who is forgiven. Stephen does not need to accept it and I won't insist and wait for him to do so. Nor is such a gesture on my part have "strings" attached or a time table, or whatever. I simply do not want to carry that kind of negativity with me wherever I go for an extended period of time. I have better things to do with my nefesh. Life is too short for this junk.
That's all I have to say. I will re-post per Paul Younan's suggestion info on Mari, and Stephen, you should also know we are in process of meeting your request. I will start by making sure the "controversial" section does not appear in the re-introdution of Mari here.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
I have heard all of your requests, read them here and through private correspondence. I have also spoken with Paul Younan and think we can and we should move forward from this unpleasant situation. And by move forward, I mean ALL OF US.
So that I can do this in spite of a lot of challenges, I need to clear the air BRIEFLY and not engage in excessive back and forth when wider issues are before us. I hope very much to do so in a sincere and positive manner to everyone here, including Stephen Silver. First though let me share with you a fairly private matter that I have only brought up once in 5+ years.
I am a Nazarene Jew but I am also a fully immersed--yes BAPTIZED--member of the Church of the East. It doesn't mean that I don't believe what I have said or even agree with everything the COE says. It does mean that I have interpreted the call of immersion as a command of both Tanakh and NT and wanted to do it in Aramaic, and I chose the COE for that purpose. The priest who officiated at the baptism was and is of Jewish ancestry. Same for Dean Dana, who was raised more Orthodox than I was and was a witness, along with Paul Younan himself.
Here is why I say this: How can I be "anti-Christian" if I am baptized in an apostolic CHURCH? In explaining this fact I should point out that I am not that different from either Stephen Silver who went from Nazarene belief into the church nor from Dean Dana or Qasha Klutz, who both share my ancestry and were baptized into the COE themselves. Nor am I that different who were baptized in their traditions only to come out of it and become Nazarenes.
The charge that has been laid at my door is that I have condemned Christendom as a whole, but if I really did that, I would condemn myself. After all I fight for what I see as their original vision, do I not?
But let me tell you what I am doing and what Mari does without apology: I fight ERROR. I don't care who says it. Within the pages of Mari to be sure are many criticsims of the RCC, Protestants and many other forms of Christianity. But I also criticize my people: Rabbinics, Karaites, reform-secularists, etc. And yes, I even criticize "Messianic Jews" and NAZARENES in Mari. If you want an NT that doesn't deal with the hurtful facts of history that I feel is needed to understand what was originally said, then Mari is not for you. Better you all know that and not buy it than feel you bought something without understanding. I am consistent in my principles (not perfect, nor is anyone) and will not give those principles up to be popular.
And let me tell you all this: Marcion was a BAD GUY and he deserves all the codemnation he gets. If anyone has a problem with that after having read the history on it, I can't help you. "Christo Pagan" relates to MARCION and others like him, because of what they DID. Or can we not talk about folks like Rabulla but not about those in the West???? If we can talk about one, we can talk about the other.
HOWEVER--that talk is not for today.
Today is Rosh Hashanna and I will shortly resume prayer. It is a time of forgiveness and repentance. It is a time when we beat our breast and beg YHWH to restore us into life in this world and the next.
This forum though also needs restoration back to its root principles, and we are all, myself included, guilty of letting it get off track. Let us get past these differences and move forward with this precious and YHWH-breathed Aramaic text. Let us come together united in the Aramaic Primacy cause (or at least the exploration of it without conclusion). Let us stop the theological bickering and get back to the business at hand.
And I agree we need more moderators, but we also need people to BE MODERATE. I stand ready to take up that mantle and to accept without pre-condition anyone else who does so, including again Stephen Silver. And Stephen, whatever issues you have with Baruch are between the two of you and have NOTHING to do with me. If people have a problem with the Netzari viewpoint they won't like Mari as it is. If people have a mature faith though they can look to it for a point of view that is not found elsewhere. They can agree or disagree with part of all of it and I will have no problem with that at all.
When a person forgives, as I do Stephen Silver, it is for the FORGIVERS' sake as much or more than it is he who is forgiven. Stephen does not need to accept it and I won't insist and wait for him to do so. Nor is such a gesture on my part have "strings" attached or a time table, or whatever. I simply do not want to carry that kind of negativity with me wherever I go for an extended period of time. I have better things to do with my nefesh. Life is too short for this junk.
That's all I have to say. I will re-post per Paul Younan's suggestion info on Mari, and Stephen, you should also know we are in process of meeting your request. I will start by making sure the "controversial" section does not appear in the re-introdution of Mari here.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth