"Losing Jesus' Language"

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama Akhi Andrew,

Before I begin, I want to say that I am more than happy to see how eager you are to actually debate with me. However, let's stay sober-minded. Most of all, let's stay open minded towards one another. This is not a war, as I was once convinced. This is a debate between you and I. Can we keep it that way?

AGR:

You made this a war Bar Khela, not I. You opened with a cannon salvo against my ancestors, and this is what Torah says about that:

Genesis 12:1-3
1 The Lord said to Abram:
Go out from your land,
your relatives,
and your father's house
to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation,
I will bless you,
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you,
I will curse those who treat you with contempt,
and all the peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.

Such is confirmed also in the NT:

Luke 16:16-17
"The Torah and the Prophets were until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is strongly urged to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the law to drop out.


Romans 11
1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section--how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life! 4 But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal. 5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace. 6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace. 7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day . 9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually. 11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them. 15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag--you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these--the natural branches--be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this secret: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob. 27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers, 29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. 30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

First of all, the word goes forth from Zion, but I never said it stayed there. There is is one Torah for Jew and for foreigner, so I never said the Torah or the BIble was just for Jews and Christians.And if these are your loving Koranic principles in calling all Zionists evil, then you have either shamed the true Koran or proved it false.

I did not say all Zionists are evil. I simply pasted an excerpt of an interview with a Rabbi who is against Zionists. My purpose for quoting him was to emphasize the peaceful coexistence of Jews and Arabs for over 1,100 years.

Again, I do not care about Zionists, the modern state of Israel, or its political situation.

AGR:

Bar Khela, the first rule of debating is to tell the truth. You know from the beginning I did not dispute the contention that there were times of relative tolerance between Jews and Muslims. I have said this REPEATEDLY. You put that quote out there and hid behind it. Then, when I called on YOU AND YOU ALONE to repudiate the idea that ZIonists are by definition evil and gave you MY DEFINTION of Zionism of Jews being allowed to exist peacefully in Israel and that alone, you had an opportunity to say something like : "Andrew, I'm not against your people's right to exist in Israel and live in peace with their neighbors. I'm against Zionist X who did this or that."

I even went so far as to say that you could label some ACTIONS by those under the Zionist banner (every group has its crazies) as extreme but that Israel had the same right as any other nation to exist. I asked this of YOU sir, not this or that Rabbi, YOU AND YOU ALONE. And what did you do?

You simply hid behind the quote like a coward. As if you do not have the discernment to say "I agree with this part" but distance yourself from the fact that I, as someone you called friend, have said "I am a Zionist" and that you did not want to call me wicked.

In my traditions, not refuting a slander or libel is just as bad as uttering it in the first place. It's called an evil report, lashon hara.

and contrary to your traditon they never set foot in Arabia either.

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As for documenting Islamic cruelty to Jews and Christians, why not read about Tamerlane, and if that is not enough, I'm sure we can give you more.

We've talked about the Mongal plenty of times over. But he emerged CENTURIES AFTER THE PROPHET FROM A LAND WITH A NOTABLY DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY. Like I ask, give me at least three examples of caliphs who were notably cruel to Christians and Jews (nearest to the period of the Prophet). If you cannot, then apologize. After all, the burden of proof is on you.

AGR:

No Akhi, the burden is on you. The burden is on Surah 9:29. The burden is on the known facts of the Qu'uran of the prophet killing Jews and Christians, which you dismissed and justified as proper conduct in war. If your prophet acts that way, how can I blame the caliphs who love him from emulating that example, any more than I would not expect Adolph Eichmann to talk about how great Jews were in front of Hitler. Let's recap then shall we? The following timeline was from "The Koran", translated by NJ Dawood, Penguin Classics:

626- The Jewish tribe of al-Nadhir crushed and expelled.

627-The Jewish tribe of Qurayza raided by Mohammed, some 800 men beheaded (only one Jew, abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children sold as slaves.

629- The Jews of Khaybar put to the sword.

So, what do I need caliphs for Bar Khela? All they would say is that "I was only following orders" from their prophet. And if they were tolerant at some point in history, then by the conduct of the prophet here they too would be killed by their fellow Muslims who were following these principles. Or do you not remember how Sunni and Shia fought one another at the beginning of your faith, the beheading of Omar, etc? You had internicene war between the followers of Ali and the mullahs, and that is a fact.

You see, you performed some really cute argumentation on this last year, but I have since learned better. You dismiss the Hadiths because they are later and claim they are a corruption of the original Islamic message. However, I have since read that the Hadiths are like the Talmud is to my people. They are highly regarded and considered almost as authoritative as the Qu'uran and in fact a highly reliable oral traditon (much like our Mishnah) commenting on key principles from the original text. And having had a chance to read both sources myself, I can honestly say that it seems to me one flows right into the other.

Furthemore, Y'shua said that when you hear of a prophet out in the desertn urgin you to follow after him TO IGNORE HIM, or did you miss that one too?

The Jews follow after Moses. Christians follow after Jesus. What are you talking about?

AGR:

I'm a Nazarene remember? Christianity follows Y'shua, who supported Moses as well, as I showed from the earlier quotes. First though let me answer your question from Scripture and then I will explain this position of mine on original believers and Moses. Here we go:

NOT TO GO INTO THE DESERT AND FOLLOW A PROPHET AFTER MESSIAH:

Matthew 24:23-31

23 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't pay any attention. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you. 26 "So if someone tells you, 'Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,' don't bother to go and look. Or, 'Look, he is hiding here,' don't believe it! 27 For as the lightning lights up the entire sky, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. 28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near. F135 29 "Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. F136 30 And then at last, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the nations of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. F137 31 And he will send forth his angels with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

And here are the words of Revelation 22:18:

18 And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone removes any of the words of this prophetic book, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

REGARDING MOSES AND Y'SHUA:

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 "But I warn you ??? unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!

Matthew 5:17-20

46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. 47 And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

John 5:46-47

I can stand on the Peshitta NT and understand my OT just fine from it alone. I have the greatest Rabbi who ever lived, the Son of YHWH Himself, to teach me, opening me to the Scriptures under the Ruach Ha Kodesh.

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Surah 112

Do you agree? Moses would.

AGR:

No, I do not agree and neither would Moses:

13 But Moses protested, "If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, 'The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,' they won't believe me. They will ask, 'Which god are you talking about? What is his name?' Then what should I tell them?" 14 God replied, "I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS(Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh). F7 Just tell them, 'I AM (Ehyeh) has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said, "Tell them, 'YHWH (Yahweh), F8 the God of your ancestors ??? the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ??? has sent me to you.' This will be my name forever; it has always been my name, and it will be used throughout all generations.

Exodus 3:13-16

And:

8 "I am Yahweh; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else. I will not share my praise with carved idols. 9 Everything I prophesied has come true, and now I will prophesy again. I will tell you the future before it happens." 10 Sing a new song to Yahweh! Sing his praises from the ends of the earth! Sing, all you who sail the seas, all you who live in distant coastlands. 11 Join in the chorus, you desert towns; let the villages of Kedar rejoice! Let the people of Sela sing for joy; shout praises from the mountaintops! 12 Let the coastlands glorify Yahweh ; let them sing his praise.

Isaiah 42:8-12

And:

10 "But you are my witnesses, O Israel!" says Yahweh . "And you are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God; there never has been and never will be. 11 I am Yahweh , and there is no other Savior. 12 First I predicted your deliverance; I declared what I would do, and then I did it ??? I saved you. No foreign god has ever done this before. You are witnesses that I am the only God," says Yahweh . 13 "From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can oppose what I do. No one can reverse my actions."

Isaiah 43:10-12

This is HIS NAME FOR ETERNITY Bar Khela. There is not a single verse in the Qu'uran where "Allah" calls himself YHWH. Instead, Allah simply claims he is the one "god" INSTEAD OF YHWH. Moses did not know Allah. David did not know Allah. The prophets never wrote nor received instruction from Allah. And Y'shua came to declare things in the name of His Father, YHWH, as is connected to his name and YHWH's (Matthew 1:21, John 17:1-5, Philippians 2, Hebrews 1). YHWH always speaks and swears by His own name, so any god that doesn't, that tacks it's identity on to a corruption of a general pagan term, is false.

Furthermore, YHWH says he will not accept praise from idols, like the Ka'aba stone for example which had hundreds of idols. We do not sanitize pagan shrines in the Torah and then walk around them 7 times in veneration, WE TEAR THEM DOWN. Do you want the hundred verses that support that, or will you concede the point?

But what does Moses say about prophets who come NOT in the name of YHWH, the one true God, but instead use another name and another god that try to steal YHWH's glory? Let's read:


1 "Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, 2 and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' 3 do not listen to them. Yahweh your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. 4 Serve only Yahweh your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. 5 The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against Yahweh your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following Yahweh your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5

And my nation is STILL CHARGED with being a light to all nations even as a Jew named Paul witnessed to those same nations. Messiah was a Jew and he is the light of the world. As long as Y'shua is believed in, Israel is still the source of that light. Always was. Always will be. Don't believe me? Read Romans 11. My people are entrusted with the eternal words of YHWH. We did not lose them.

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43)

Jesus says differently than Paul.

AGR:

No Akhi. Neither Y'shua nor Paul say this, because both men affirm the irrevocable promises that YHWH made to Israel. In this instance, you are showing an amazing degree of ignorance. You are assuming the "you" refers to all Israel. It does NOT. It refers to the Pharisees. Next time it might behoove you to actually read the next line or two for context instead of making stuff up:

45 When the leading priests and Pharisees heard Y'shua, they realized he was pointing at them ??? that they were the farmers in his story. 46 They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid to try because the crowds considered Y'shua to be a prophet.

Matthew 21:45

So much for that load of manure.

Now I will tell you something that most here have never heard and will find shocking. The mainstream Christian belief is that the Pharisees kept the Torah and that the Torah was abolished by Y'shua and/or Paul.

The fact is however, the Pharisees DID NOT KEEP THE TORAH BUT KEPT THE ORAL LAW INSTEAD, AND THIS IS WHY THEIR STATUS WAS STRIPPED. BUT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL AS A WHOLE. THAT PROMISE WAS NEVER ABROGRATED. Want proof? Fine.


1 Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to interview Y'shua. 2 "Why do your disciples disobey our age-old traditions?" they demanded. "They ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat." 3 Y'shua replied, "And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God? 4 For instance, God says, 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' F78 5 But you say, 'You don't need to honor your parents by caring for their needs if you give the money to God instead.' 6 And so, by your own tradition, you nullify the direct commandment of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 8 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. 9 Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.'

Matthew 15:1-9

Then Y'shua said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures (they sit in Moses' seat). 3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.
Matthew 23:1-3


5 So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked him, "Why don't your disciples follow our age-old customs? For they eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony." 6 Y'shua replied, "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 7 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.' F28 8 For you ignore God's specific laws and substitute your own traditions." 9 Then he said, "You reject God's laws in order to hold on to your own traditions. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' F29 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, 'Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' F30 12 You let them disregard their needy parents. 13 As such, you break the law of God in order to protect your own tradition. And this is only one example. There are many, many others."

Mark 7:5-13

46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. 47 And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

John 5:46-47

But what does Messiah say about those, Jew and Gentile, who do keep the instructions of His Father, YHWH? Let's see a few:

46 As Y'shua was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk with him. 47 Someone told Y'shua, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you." 48 Y'shua asked, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, "These are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"

Matthew 12:46-50/Mark 3:31-35

If you want proof of Paul being misunderstood, there is not only my book (and its sequel coming out in a few months) that deals with a lot of those verses but a free lecture on the web about the true understanding of Galatians and its relationship to Paul, the Pharisees and the Oral Law. It takes about 3 hours to make the case but it is compelling. My friend Avi Ben Mordechai, who lives in Jerusalem BTW, is the speaker. So, since I don't have time to get into all of this here, I recommend that you go to his website and hear it for yourself. Find it at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.m7000.com">http://www.m7000.com</a><!-- w -->, and click on the bookstore link.

Now I will tell you what I believe. All people, everywhere, regardless of race, creed, national origin or any other factor, have ONE REDEEMER and ONE MESSIAH. ONE REVELATION FOR ALL MEN, AND LET ME SAY THIS CLEARLY, IT IS NOT THE KORAN. One Torah (and NT) for Jew, Gentile, foreigner, Arab, black, white, green, red. One Path to Life through Maran Eshoa Meshikha, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF ALAHA, born of a virgin, worker of miracles and risen from the dead on the third day.

If being born of a virgin qualifies Eeshoa to be the 'son of God,' then surely Adam has more right than he.

AGR:

Being born a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) qualifies Y'shua to be SINLESS. Being the Eternal Miltha spoken from YHWH's own mouth, the firstborn of creation, is what qualifies him to be the Son. Having sinned, Adam has no such rights. I think this is pretty clear from the Scripture, but hey, just say the word and I will show you the Word.

So I don't care what you are, where you are from, your culture, your goals, your tastes, your likes and dislikes, all are null and irrelevant. Y'shua is the only way, the only truth, and the only life.

According to the author(s) of John

AGR:

Oh that's cute. So because other apostles "signed off" on John's report in 21:24 (we know his testimony to be true) the Gospel is not wholly his? And it's according to YHWH himself that these things are true, and according to Y'shua that I believe them. Really Bar Khela you know better.

You have poorly represented your faith Bar Khela.

I'm just getting warm

AGR:

Which means you have been cold up until now. And you will remain cold as long as you preach lies and hatred. I have read with interest the words of Shimoun and Uma. One seems to suggest that the problem is in the Qu'uran itself, that by its very nature it is evil and dripping with blood, and that the terrorists are actually properly interpereting it. The other says (I think anyway) that the original Qu'uran has been misunderstood. That if Allah is YHWH that Allah always loved and will always love and support Israel.

I don't know which of these is right, but I believe ONE OF THEM MUST BE. And so it comes back to my original statement. You either have shamed the true Qu'uran or you have proven it to be full of lies. I personally don't care which it is. I only know that one of them is.

Understand this: I have no quarrel with anything or anybody about any belief as long as my people are not attacked. But I will fight my enemies of any faith (whether they are true to that faith or are perverting it) any place in YHWH's green earth.

A final word to the Christians here. What I have said about the Pharisees and the oral law, the immuatability of Torah, etc., is only intended as a response to disprove Bar Khela's lie that all of Jews are kicked out of Israel according to the Gospels. As a Nazarene, I have done nothing in secret, but as a member of this forum, I have done my best not to emphasize these things just as a way to incite argument. No question I believe my positions here, but I don't want any of you to think I was attacking you. In fact, were it not absolutely necessary, I would not have gotten into this at all, and barring such bigoted incitement as this in the future, I have no intent of doing so again. Anyone who has questions on this can see my website or read my writings. But I will not make peshitta.org a clearling house for "Andrew Gabriel Roth Inc."

And to my dear friend Paul Younan, my apologies. I would never have gotten down this theological road as far as I had to here if I were not compelled. I could only refute prejudice with Scripture and that means theology was very much on point here. Also my apologies to anyone else who may have been offended by this, as it was not my intention.

Bar Khela, if you cannot even acknowledge the offense you gave or have the slightest compassion for someone who says you offended even if you do not fully understand how you did so, then honestly you have nothing to contribute.

Let me say this one more time: "All Zionists are evil" is not a tenable or tolerant doctrine. I am a Zionist, so yes, I am offended. I don't care if you say it directly or support a quote from someone else, or leave it there and remain silent. The offense is the same.

You know many black people would say that they have a right to criticise their own, but others better not do so. I can relate to that. So if a Rabbi is misguided about anything, Y'shua, Zionism, whatever--I will decide where and how or if to deal with that. But heaven help you for doing the same thing, because the bottom line is that no Rabbi would physcially attack the state of Israel or kill Jews by the thousands, even if they thought Israel was not for real. That is the key difference.

And yes, it is true that I am attacking you from the outside, but I am not forsaking my principles when I am defending my people, and that takes precedence.

Even now though I have hope that you will turn back and that we may continue in peace as we always have done. And you better believe that if someone in my life said I hurt them badly, even if I did not "get it", I would still try to make that right and apologize for the impression. That comes from being married for 10 years more than anything else.

You wnat debate? Act more mature.