05-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Shlama to all my brothers here, Nazarenes and Christians alike.
Oh WOW! I hardly know how to respond to all tumult. I have written privately to my dear brother Albion telling him of my support for him and trying to help. Now I think one more statement here from me is also needed.
Words and terms can hurt when taken out of context, and what one person intends may not come across to another. Let me give one example. I remember after we got Saddam Hussein, our current president said two words in a speech that just flabberghasted me. The first was (paraphrasing) "And now we are ready to help the Iraqi people on their long CRUSADE for freedom and democracy." I was astonished. That's all Arabs and Muslims need to hear from a Western power, that they are ready to launch a CRUSADE, when they still haven't gotten over the first one. The second term Bush said was the "RECONSTRUCTION" of Iraq. Okay sounds innocuous, but to people who know our history RECONSTRUCTION, as in what happened to the South at the end of the Civil War when, as they saw it, the imperialist North occupied their own country from 12 years and bled them dry, was not something for a former adversary of ours to look forward to. As another president of ours once said too, "Where would this great country be without this great land of ours?" HUH?!?!?!?
I think we all need to take a deep breath (myself included) and realize that we are all here united in Peshitta Primacy and we all love the same Messiah and His Father. It is true that from the Netzari viewpoint we look at Torah observance (keep his commandments) as a way to show that love and be his disciple. But it is also true that over the long count of centuries that we have been murdered and persecuted by others who called themselves Christians for trying to do this. That doesn't mean their sin is on anyone here. Rather, it may put our passion in better perspective.
I was very moved though about what Akhan Ryan said about how his questions led him to understand Messiah better, and I agree with him essentially on that process of education, sharing and dialogue, as ALL OF US make steps forward TOGETHER. That's what it is all about. i also know that in the beginning of the faith we made accomodations to NOT make it hard for the Gentiles to join. Those minimum requirements in Acts 15 were not meant as the FINAL place for them, but a BEGINNING, and I would argue today's Christians have the same right to their part in the gradual process, even if we disagree about where they should go ultimately. That is not something for us to judge, but we do have an obligation to point to Scripture to express what we feel the truth to be. My point though all along has been that we do not spare our brothers when we have been strident in our preaching with others, including Christians. We are ALL sinners we are ALL under potential rebuke from the same standard of Law, and that's all I meant to say. I am pretty sure, given his clarifications here, that Dawid intended the same distinction.
Finally, to my brother Albion, please accept my abject apologies for any unintentional offenses that my part in this "Passion play" may have caused. I would like to close with this thought. I remember the first time I gave a speech at a Netzari shul that I was astonished that the MAJORITY there were GENTILES who had left the church. I felt immeidately uncomfortable that the "corrections" I was hired to talk about would be offensive. I thought long and hard on it and almost cancelled the speech but for the prayer leaders' insistence that I should not worry. In the end I told them that to whatever extent they had thought about how to do things better and learn the hebraic roots of their faith, to that extent my criticisms do NOT come upon them. They are on the halachic path from their own point, and that should be respected. Then I remembered a line from Romans where Rav Shaul talked about SOME righteous Gentiles doing the Torah on their own and becoming a Torah unto themselves, and mentioned that too. Otherwise I kept the full passion of my very long lecture intact. At the end of it, I got a ten minute standing ovation and a lot of hugs, tears and thank yous for telling the truth. I have never been so proud to be around any group of folks--Jewish or Gentile--in my life, before or since.
So yes we have differences and express ourselves pasionately. Yes there are core perspectives that we can't compromise on. But within that, we are commanded to love our neighbor, which by Y'shua's defintions include Samaritans, Romans, apostates and outcasts. We love them and try to lift them up. You know I came to the Nazarene faith principally due to the efforts of a Protestant-Baptist I met in college. He, more than anyone else, brought Y'shua in to my heart in 1986. I have never forgotten his wise words to me then: "Andrew, remember. It is always far better to love the heaven into someone, than to scare the hell out of them."
Hope this helps!
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Oh WOW! I hardly know how to respond to all tumult. I have written privately to my dear brother Albion telling him of my support for him and trying to help. Now I think one more statement here from me is also needed.
Words and terms can hurt when taken out of context, and what one person intends may not come across to another. Let me give one example. I remember after we got Saddam Hussein, our current president said two words in a speech that just flabberghasted me. The first was (paraphrasing) "And now we are ready to help the Iraqi people on their long CRUSADE for freedom and democracy." I was astonished. That's all Arabs and Muslims need to hear from a Western power, that they are ready to launch a CRUSADE, when they still haven't gotten over the first one. The second term Bush said was the "RECONSTRUCTION" of Iraq. Okay sounds innocuous, but to people who know our history RECONSTRUCTION, as in what happened to the South at the end of the Civil War when, as they saw it, the imperialist North occupied their own country from 12 years and bled them dry, was not something for a former adversary of ours to look forward to. As another president of ours once said too, "Where would this great country be without this great land of ours?" HUH?!?!?!?
I think we all need to take a deep breath (myself included) and realize that we are all here united in Peshitta Primacy and we all love the same Messiah and His Father. It is true that from the Netzari viewpoint we look at Torah observance (keep his commandments) as a way to show that love and be his disciple. But it is also true that over the long count of centuries that we have been murdered and persecuted by others who called themselves Christians for trying to do this. That doesn't mean their sin is on anyone here. Rather, it may put our passion in better perspective.
I was very moved though about what Akhan Ryan said about how his questions led him to understand Messiah better, and I agree with him essentially on that process of education, sharing and dialogue, as ALL OF US make steps forward TOGETHER. That's what it is all about. i also know that in the beginning of the faith we made accomodations to NOT make it hard for the Gentiles to join. Those minimum requirements in Acts 15 were not meant as the FINAL place for them, but a BEGINNING, and I would argue today's Christians have the same right to their part in the gradual process, even if we disagree about where they should go ultimately. That is not something for us to judge, but we do have an obligation to point to Scripture to express what we feel the truth to be. My point though all along has been that we do not spare our brothers when we have been strident in our preaching with others, including Christians. We are ALL sinners we are ALL under potential rebuke from the same standard of Law, and that's all I meant to say. I am pretty sure, given his clarifications here, that Dawid intended the same distinction.
Finally, to my brother Albion, please accept my abject apologies for any unintentional offenses that my part in this "Passion play" may have caused. I would like to close with this thought. I remember the first time I gave a speech at a Netzari shul that I was astonished that the MAJORITY there were GENTILES who had left the church. I felt immeidately uncomfortable that the "corrections" I was hired to talk about would be offensive. I thought long and hard on it and almost cancelled the speech but for the prayer leaders' insistence that I should not worry. In the end I told them that to whatever extent they had thought about how to do things better and learn the hebraic roots of their faith, to that extent my criticisms do NOT come upon them. They are on the halachic path from their own point, and that should be respected. Then I remembered a line from Romans where Rav Shaul talked about SOME righteous Gentiles doing the Torah on their own and becoming a Torah unto themselves, and mentioned that too. Otherwise I kept the full passion of my very long lecture intact. At the end of it, I got a ten minute standing ovation and a lot of hugs, tears and thank yous for telling the truth. I have never been so proud to be around any group of folks--Jewish or Gentile--in my life, before or since.
So yes we have differences and express ourselves pasionately. Yes there are core perspectives that we can't compromise on. But within that, we are commanded to love our neighbor, which by Y'shua's defintions include Samaritans, Romans, apostates and outcasts. We love them and try to lift them up. You know I came to the Nazarene faith principally due to the efforts of a Protestant-Baptist I met in college. He, more than anyone else, brought Y'shua in to my heart in 1986. I have never forgotten his wise words to me then: "Andrew, remember. It is always far better to love the heaven into someone, than to scare the hell out of them."
Hope this helps!
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth