02-02-2005, 12:05 PM
Let's get past the drama here Dave. The Holy Spirit is there and willing to help any of God's children to attain greater things, but if you wish to campaign against The Holy Spirit, so be it, go ahead and fall into that pit, I won't stop you.
Let me touch on a few things here:
Oh really? Are you that bold only because the OT Prophets are not around to show you how wrong you are, or is it something else Dave? Is it because God chooses the unwise to do His will in such matters as these instead of a person with a degree in linguistics? What are you eluding to here, or better yet, what are you fishing for?
God is going to do what He wants to do in such matters and you and your friends have no say so in it. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is the truth. It is just the way it is Dave, He will choose who he wants because He knows the heart of a person, and that is all I'm going to say about it.
It is quite evident Dave. Jesus is our perfect example in all things. He stated it, the things that He would do we would do and more.
Let's take a look at His baptism.
John was having the people repent before God prior to their water immersion, so that would be our first step in the Christians new life. Then he was immersing the people in water. Why? Because it was symbolic of the cleansing we would receive after Jesus's work was finished. His blood would provide the doorway into the new life from God, for all who would choose God. The medium for this would be The Holy Spirit, as John said: "Behold, I truly baptise thee in the days of repentance, but another comes mightier than I, the throng of whose sandal I am unworthy to unfasten. He shall baptise thee with the fire of The Holy Spirit."
Hence it is clear, John's water baptism was temporary, according to his own words. Does that mean that water baptism is annuled? No, anyone can be water baptised, and it is good to do so, but it is not a mandatory thing. You can receive The Holy Spirit after your repentance even if you have never been water baptised. Again, John's baptism was symbolic of what was to come.
Now,....When Jesus received The Holy Spirit after His water baptism, was that a singular event that no one else would experience or need to go through? No, because He fulfilled all righteousness for us. He is our perfect example. Jesus also told the first century Christians to wait in Jerusalem (home) for the promise from The Father prior to His departure. The greek has "to be waiting" in Jerusalem.
That promise was The Comforter, ie The Holy Spirit. Again, it is clear, the example is evident, and those first century Christians received The Holy Spirit in a wonderful measure.
Let's ask the question again, was that a singular event that no one else would experience or need to go through? Again no, because it has been duplicated many times over.
Ever heard of Azusa street?
That outpouring of The Spirit is still building new churches.
So Dave, to want a specific scripture that says that you must go through this sort of trial by fire that all of us born-again, Spirit-filled Christians have, I have none for you. But I will tell you the same thing that you told Chris a while back, just because you do not understand the scriptures in these matters is your own fault, not mine or anyone elses. To deny it, is to deny what happened to our Christian forefathers in Jerusalem, and to deny those events that have since happened afterwards by the hand of such people as Finney, Wigglesworth, Sumrall, Lake, etc, and the multitudes that came together in one accord at that church on Azusa street, all of which are clearly documented in history.
Let me touch on a few things here:
Quote:You and I would know nothing about The Holy Spirit and Jesus without the Bible. You cannot dictate what it means or which reading is correct by praying.
Oh really? Are you that bold only because the OT Prophets are not around to show you how wrong you are, or is it something else Dave? Is it because God chooses the unwise to do His will in such matters as these instead of a person with a degree in linguistics? What are you eluding to here, or better yet, what are you fishing for?
God is going to do what He wants to do in such matters and you and your friends have no say so in it. Sorry if that is harsh, but it is the truth. It is just the way it is Dave, He will choose who he wants because He knows the heart of a person, and that is all I'm going to say about it.
Quote:I don't see a second blessing or baptism in the NT. Either one is a Christian, and has the Holy Spirit in him, or he is not a Christian and has not the Holy Spirit in him. What scripture have I missed ?
It is quite evident Dave. Jesus is our perfect example in all things. He stated it, the things that He would do we would do and more.
Let's take a look at His baptism.
John was having the people repent before God prior to their water immersion, so that would be our first step in the Christians new life. Then he was immersing the people in water. Why? Because it was symbolic of the cleansing we would receive after Jesus's work was finished. His blood would provide the doorway into the new life from God, for all who would choose God. The medium for this would be The Holy Spirit, as John said: "Behold, I truly baptise thee in the days of repentance, but another comes mightier than I, the throng of whose sandal I am unworthy to unfasten. He shall baptise thee with the fire of The Holy Spirit."
Hence it is clear, John's water baptism was temporary, according to his own words. Does that mean that water baptism is annuled? No, anyone can be water baptised, and it is good to do so, but it is not a mandatory thing. You can receive The Holy Spirit after your repentance even if you have never been water baptised. Again, John's baptism was symbolic of what was to come.
Now,....When Jesus received The Holy Spirit after His water baptism, was that a singular event that no one else would experience or need to go through? No, because He fulfilled all righteousness for us. He is our perfect example. Jesus also told the first century Christians to wait in Jerusalem (home) for the promise from The Father prior to His departure. The greek has "to be waiting" in Jerusalem.
That promise was The Comforter, ie The Holy Spirit. Again, it is clear, the example is evident, and those first century Christians received The Holy Spirit in a wonderful measure.
Let's ask the question again, was that a singular event that no one else would experience or need to go through? Again no, because it has been duplicated many times over.
Ever heard of Azusa street?
That outpouring of The Spirit is still building new churches.
So Dave, to want a specific scripture that says that you must go through this sort of trial by fire that all of us born-again, Spirit-filled Christians have, I have none for you. But I will tell you the same thing that you told Chris a while back, just because you do not understand the scriptures in these matters is your own fault, not mine or anyone elses. To deny it, is to deny what happened to our Christian forefathers in Jerusalem, and to deny those events that have since happened afterwards by the hand of such people as Finney, Wigglesworth, Sumrall, Lake, etc, and the multitudes that came together in one accord at that church on Azusa street, all of which are clearly documented in history.