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Questions on Koine Greek
#1
Shlama Akhay ukhatay,

I have a couple of questions about Koine Greek which someone here on the forum might be able to help me with. The first is does anyone know of any example of extra-Biblical Koine Greek? By this I mean first or second century Greek texts, outside the Greek New Testament, which exhibit all the same grammatical peculiarities that the Biblical text does.

Secondly, does anyone know if there has ever been a comprehensive comparison of the grammatical differences between the Greek New Testament and Classical Greek grammar and syntax, showing both the number of differences, and the types and locations of those differences?

John Marucci
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#2
"Secondly, does anyone know if there has ever been a comprehensive comparison of the grammatical differences between the Greek New Testament and Classical Greek grammar and syntax, showing both the number of differences, and the types and locations of those differences?

John Marucci[/quote]"


Well I had some discusssion and debate threads on Aramaic and Greek primacy. On the web site theooze.com which is where I get some of my online name. Any way, I was basically advocating Aramaic primacy first from stuff I learned from the late George Lamsa in some of his books then later stuff from this web site.


Anyway on one point, actually something raised in one of the threads here, I was told very patronizingly/ dismissively on one issue. Where a Protestant Seminary student asked a professor about stuff raised on the thread. Anyway, that student relayed back with Great confidence that "yes, the New Testament does follow language rules for Kione (Their are some dialects that use a word order that also is used in Bibical Kione). Like everyday conversation etc. And in most areas does not fit the pattern that one would find coming from a Semitic, or Aramaic translation. Furthermore the style of it fits patterns like something that was dictated" (presumably from the original apostle).


Anyway, I don't think that professor was forced to answer some of the difficult or potentially embarrassing points often raised on this web board if you are a Greek primacist.


Anyway, their were numerous letters, shopping lists, diaries etc. which were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls in Kione Greek and those were a godsend as far as double checking questionable areas of vocabulary and grammar. I haven't heard of any fine comparisons between the two, except for that one Seminary professors dissmisive comments that my opponent on that issue was relaying back to me.
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#3
I believe the Greek of Josephus may be koine and I know that the Septuagint is Koine.

Greek studies are being done at a phenominal rate right now due to everything being computerized. What would have taken years takes weeks now in searches. I believe the logos bible software has the best Greek stuff to date, with lexical searches even based on the era certain words were used.
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#4
Hi Scribe,

There are plenty of works in Koine Greek such as those by Eutuchius. Please note that the Greek of the GNT is remarkably similar to the Greek of the LXX and WAY DIFFERENT to other examples of Koine Greek. I can show you this from research I have done with Joe Viel on conjunction usage in HOT LXX GNT and real Koine Greek works, and Paul and the others here can show you this through grammar.

The conclusion of these two streams of evidences is that the GNT is NOT Koine Greek (nor is the LXX), it is translation Greek (of a Semitic original). Note that both the LXX and GNT also have varying quality Greek throughout, another marker that BOTH are translations.

That the GNT is written in Koine is a lie and an excuse. When actually comparing it to real Koine, you see just how corrupt Bible scholars are. In fact, it is well known that the Koine theory came out of the defense of the Greek from the growing Semitic primacy movement in the middle ages.
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#5
Works of Plutarch are in Koine too by the way.
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#6
Quote:Secondly, does anyone know if there has ever been a comprehensive comparison of the grammatical differences between the Greek New Testament and Classical Greek grammar and syntax, showing both the number of differences, and the types and locations of those differences?

Sorry, I do not wish to spam and cause discomfort here, but I missed this part.

YES. The study I told you about done by myself and Joe Viel not only compares HOT LXX GNT and Koine works, it also compares Classical Greek works (like Const of Athens). The result is that clas Greek and Koine are quite similar, and both are far removed from the GNT Greek, which aligns with the Greek of the LXX and follows the conjunction usage of the HOT and the PESHITTA.
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#7
Shlama kulkun,

Thank you all for your replies. I knew that koine was a generic term, it is even used by Semitic linguists to refer to the numerous modern Arabic dialects, even though many of them are unintelligible to one another. What I don't know are how the various ancient Greek dialects relate to one another, and to the Greek New Testament So, what my question comes down to is where are the Greek Primacist???s sources? Where are the journal articles, thesis dissertations, and book length studies that compare the linguistics of BG to the other attested dialects of Greek in the first centuries B.C.E. and C.E?

Akhi Byrnesey, where may I read your comparitive study on conjunction use in the Greek and Semitic texts?

John Marucci
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#8
You can wait until my free e-book is published (should be ready in about a month, around 300 pages) or if you private message me your email address, I can send you the specific part on conjunction usage that easily shows that a) The LXX and GNT follow Semitic structure, unlike Koine Greek sources, and b) the specifics within this structure also show a more Semitic style.
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#9
Akhi Byrnesey,

I look forward to the publication of your book. You don???t have to, but should you want to take the time to let me preview your conjugation material, my public e-mail address is on my website at:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/beth-sapra/index.html">http://www.peshitta.org/beth-sapra/index.html</a><!-- m -->

John Marucci
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#10
Shlama Akhi John,

AramaicScribe Wrote:Secondly, does anyone know if there has ever been a comprehensive comparison of the grammatical differences between the Greek New Testament and Classical Greek grammar and syntax, showing both the number of differences, and the types and locations of those differences?

Crucial work on this topic has been done by Raymond A. Martin, who has proposed seventeen syntactical criteria for identifying Greek that has been translated from Aramaic. These features appear frequently in the verifiably translated Greek of the LXX, but are rare in works composed in Greek. He has applied these criteria mainly to New Testament texts. They are:

(1) Relative frequency of eight prepositions in relationship to the preposition "en"
(2) The comparative frequencies of "kai" and "de" in coordinating independent clauses
(3) The separation of the Greek definite article from its substantive
(4) The tendency to place genitives after the substantive on which they depend
(5) A greater frequency of dependent genitive personal pronouns
(6) A tendency to omit the article on a substantive with a dependent genitive personal pronoun
(7) A tendency to place attributive adjectives after the word they qualify
(8) Less frequent use of attributive adjectives
(9) Less frequent use of adverbial participles
(10) Less frequent use of the dative case without a preposition

Martin asserts that his seventeen criteria are not "the aspects of the language which would color the speech or writing of a person who is thinking in Aramaic or Hebrew as he writes Greek."

(Syntactical Evidence of Semitic Sources in Greek Documents (Cambridge, Mass.: Society of Biblical Literature, 1974); Syntax Criticism of the Synoptic Gospels (Studies in the Bible and Early Christianity 10; Lewiston, New York/Queenston, Ontario: Edwin Mellen, 1987)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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