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What is 'human?'
#1
Akhay,

We have established that the Qnome of human beings are different from the Qnome of angels. However, we have never defined what a human being is. What do we mean when we call ourselves "human beings?"

Consider my line of reasoning on the matter:

Biologically, man is no different from the beasts of the earth. He is born inhaling the common air, intaking the herbs of the earth and flesh of other animals into his body as norishment, and builds shelter for himself. He consumes and he dies. Seemingly, the foundation of his entire existence is to find ways to impress the female animal with the healthiest genes, so that he can reproduce himself and help continue the human species as dominant predator on earth.

However, man is different from the beasts of the earth in that he is able to generate original thought. He is able to fathom concepts, produce concepts, expound on concepts, and build on concepts. He has the ability to choose between his "will-to-live", which is his primal instinct as discussed previously, and his intellect. We are constantly at conflict between the two and as a result, we are continuously at war within ourselves. When a bear chases us, we frantically run out of fear without using our intellect because our will-to-live is so strong. When we are insulted, we sometimes rage without projecting sound mind and noble spirit onto our adversary. The only reason we are able to be tempted is because temptation always appeals to our animal--the irrational "survival is first" creature. This is why the common man will lie, cheat, and steal in order to save his own life.

"The body is weak, but the spirit is willing."

Therefore, I conclude that 'human' denotes "being with choice." With our amphibian-like nature, we are able to choose to live as beasts or serve as angels.

Any thoughts?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#2
bar_khela Wrote:However, man is different from the beasts of the earth in that he is able to generate original thought. He is able to fathom concepts, produce concepts, expound on concepts, and build on concepts.


Man is different from some beasts that way. But, chimps, dolphins, etc. can fathom, produce, and build on concepts.

Quote:He has the ability to choose between his "will-to-live", which is his primal instinct as discussed previously, and his intellect.


I think some animals have quite a developed intellect and many seem to have emotions as well: fear, love, lust, playfulness, loyalty, greed, jealousy, etc.

Quote:Therefore, I conclude that 'human' denotes "being with choice." With our amphibian-like nature, we are able to choose to live as beasts or serve as angels.

I'd say angels have free will, and perhaps even some animals have that capacity. What separates us from the animals (other than we have been assigned dominion over them) is simply our greater potential for comprehension and relationship with Elohim (some of which no doubt is because of a superior intellect), fallen man is born second only to the angels in that regard, and those who have faith in the Son of Elohim have the potential to surpass even the angels (1 Cor. 6:2-3) due to the indellewing of the Spirit of Holiness which is something they don't seem to have been built with a capacity for (perhaps that is why some angels rebelled).

Shlama, Craig
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#3
Craig Amanyahu Wrote:
bar_khela Wrote:However, man is different from the beasts of the earth in that he is able to generate original thought. He is able to fathom concepts, produce concepts, expound on concepts, and build on concepts.


Man is different from some beasts that way. But, chimps, dolphins, etc. can fathom, produce, and build on concepts.

True, there are exceptions in the animal kingdom. For instance, only dolphins alongside with humans have sexual intercourse for enjoyment. Both chimps and dolphins are able to communicate in a somewhat complex "language." Moreover, dolphins are very benevolent to humans and wolves are known to develop tightly-knitted packs. Crows are arguably as family oriented as human beings. However, all parties are unable to act outside the realm of instinct.

Quote:He has the ability to choose between his "will-to-live", which is his primal instinct as discussed previously, and his intellect.


I think some animals have quite a developed intellect and many seem to have emotions as well: fear, love, lust, playfulness, loyalty, greed, jealousy, etc.

Indeed, some animals have a degree of intellect. However, their intellect circles around their urge to trap prey, dodge predators, reproduce, and protect their young. A bee does not choose to collect pollen and create a nearly flawless, geometrical hive. It does not have the consciousness to question the queen bee or to sit and think on how it can improve the hive. Instead, it fully submits to its impulse and does what it was created to do. As a result, it submits to God without question.

As far as fear, love, lust, playfulness, loyalty, greed, and jealousy is concerned, each plays its part in our will-to-live. However, this is not Biology 101, so I will refrain from boring you.

Quote:Therefore, I conclude that 'human' denotes "being with choice." With our amphibian-like nature, we are able to choose to live as beasts or serve as angels.

I'd say angels have free will, and perhaps even some animals have that capacity. What separates us from the animals (other than we have been assigned dominion over them) is simply our greater potential for comprehension and relationship with Elohim (some of which no doubt is because of a superior intellect), fallen man is born second only to the angels in that regard, and those who have faith in the Son of Elohim have the potential to surpass even the angels (1 Cor. 6:2-3) due to the indellewing of the Spirit of Holiness which is something they don't seem to have been built with a capacity for (perhaps that is why some angels rebelled).

According to Islamic theology, angels were created from light. They were not given free will. They serve God for all eternity without question. Jinn were created from smokeless fire. The Jinn are an invisible race of beings who are likened to the human race, except they are more prone to evil. According to Islamic theology, Iblis or Lucifer was flawless in his worship, so he was considered to be an angel though he was from the race of Jinn. When Adam was created, God commanded the angels to prostrate before his new creation, but Iblis chose to stand. When asked why he did so, he said that he was created from fire and Adam was created from the earth (implying that he was a better creature). Consequently, he was exiled from heaven and granted respite until the Day of Resurrection.

The point that I wanted to make is that the angels were not given free will (according to Islamic theology). Therefore, the fact that we are able to choose whether or not we should worship God make us superior to the angels. We are have a superior consciousness to them, in that we know good and evil from experience. On the same token, we are superior to the animals because we know good and evil from experience and we are able to resist good or evil based on choice and not impulse.

Shlama,
bar-Khela
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#4
Shlama Akhi bar-Khale,

Remember how we discussed that the Kyana is an abstract type for "nature?"

Well, in this sense every type of creature has its own Kyana. There is the Kyana of reptiles, another one for fish....for birds, and even angels and humans.

The Kyana can be thought of as the "blueprint." In the human Kyana is contained all the characteristics of being human. All creatures fashioned from this Kyana are similiar in the ways in which humans are similiar (two eyes, stand upright, intellect, etc.)

This is the way that the Aramaic writers have approached the topic in the past.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#5
Akh,

One of my professors said that according to present cosmological theory, there are three ways that the universe may end itself. One, the universe will continue to expand so much that all matter will freeze. Two, the universe will stop expanding and come back onto itself like a boomerang (consequently, all matter will liquidate), which is known as the Big Crunch. Three, the universe folds back into a singularity and explodes again, which is known as the "Yo-Yo Effect."

So I asked him, "How do you suppose the singularity of which you speak came into being?" He replied, "by chance." I asked, "If by chance, why are all things from quarks to the cosmos in perfect harmony within each other as though they were given a unified consciousness?" He replied, "only by chance." Then he goes into some evolutionary tangent about how the universe and human life are forever indebted to probability.

Thus is the Kyana of atheists.
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#6
bar_khela Wrote:A bee does not choose to collect pollen and create a nearly flawless, geometrical hive. It does not have the consciousness to question the queen bee or to sit and think on how it can improve the hive. Instead, it fully submits to its impulse and does what it was created to do. As a result, it submits to God without question.

Bees aren't animals, they are insects and don't make a valid comparision to animals like chimpanzees who have enough ability to generate original ideas to the degree that they can create tools:

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bar_khela Wrote:According to Islamic theology, angels were created from light. They were not given free will. They serve God for all eternity without question.

Well, then they are nothing but biological robots and extensions of Allah then.

bar_khela Wrote:Jinn were created from smokeless fire. The Jinn are an invisible race of beings who are likened to the human race, except they are more prone to evil. According to Islamic theology, Iblis or Lucifer was flawless in his worship, so he was considered to be an angel though he was from the race of Jinn. When Adam was created, God commanded the angels to prostrate before his new creation, but Iblis chose to stand.

Then "Jinn" are much higher creatures than "angels." They have free will (thus man isn't unique in that regard even in Islamic theology) and the ability to be as flawless as angels when they choose to be. Strange that the mindless angels serve Allah but the much more advanced Jinn are the ones who choose evil. I'm glad that the Alaha of Israel is great enough that the majority of His most advanced creations (angels) choose to serve Him out of their own free will accessment of His worthiness of it.

Shlama, Craig
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#7
Bees aren't animals, they are insects and don't make a valid comparision to animals like chimpanzees who have enough ability to generate original ideas to the degree that they can create tools:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.units.muohio.edu/dragonfly/tools/chimptools.shtml">http://www.units.muohio.edu/dragonfly/t ... ools.shtml</a><!-- m -->

Creating tools is not necessarily "creative" within the animal kingdom. Some birds use "tools" to create nests for their young. The point is that the animal's intellect is instinctually oriented. You're right when you say that the nature of the bee does not compare to the nature of the chimp because as Akh Paul said, each creature has its own Kyana.

Well, then they are nothing but biological robots and extensions of Allah then.

There is nothing "biological" about a being created from light. God has no extensions.


Then "Jinn" are much higher creatures than "angels." They have free will (thus man isn't unique in that regard even in Islamic theology) and the ability to be as flawless as angels when they choose to be.

Arguably so. Arguably not so.

Strange that the mindless angels serve Allah but the much more advanced Jinn are the ones who choose evil.

There are Jinn who choose good as well.

I'm glad that the Alaha of Israel is great enough that the majority of His most advanced creations (angels) choose to serve Him out of their own free will accessment of His worthiness of it.

Now, don't start that, Craig. I serve the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as well, so I am going to pretend that you are not implying that I serve a different God. But specifically, where exactly does it say that angels were given free will in the New Testament? If you are using Jude and Revelation, remember that they are questionable works that were not added to the canon of the CoE.

Shlama,

bar-Khela
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#8
Quote:Creating tools is not necessarily "creative" within the animal kingdom. Some birds use "tools" to create nests for their young. The point is that the animal's intellect is instinctually oriented.


Instinct alone won't enable a man or chimp (if it did all chimps would create the same tools under the same conditions, instead of bright individuals) to create some of the tools that they do.


Quote:There is nothing "biological" about a being created from light. God has no extensions.

They can mate with human women (Bereshit/Genesis), so I'd call that biological. Although, I admit they would be better described as spiritual beings that can take on human/biological form and produce gigantic unnatural hybrid offspring in that form.

Quote:God has no extensions.

If Islamic angels have no free will then, by default, they are nothing but extensions of [your] God to the same degree that my car is an extension of me while I'm driving it.


Quote:Craig said, "Then 'Jinn' are much higher creatures than 'angels.' They have free will (thus man isn't unique in that regard even in Islamic theology) and the ability to be as flawless as angels when they choose to be."

Bar Khela replied, "Arguably so. Arguably not so."

Craig also said, "Strange that the mindless angels serve Allah but the much more advanced Jinn are the ones who choose evil."

Bar Khela also replied to that, "There are Jinn who choose good as well."

That's my point. They have free will, thus they are superior to Islamic "angels" in that ultra-important category.


Quote:Now, don't start that, Craig. I serve the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as well, so I am going to pretend that you are not implying that I serve a different God.

Sorry, I do not believe that Allah is the same deity, and I would remiss if I didn't warn you of what Christian theology holds is going to happen to you after you die:

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Quote:But specifically, where exactly does it say that angels were given free will in the New Testament?


It is taken for granted throughout the Peshitta, for instance:

"Then He [Y'shu] will say also to those that are at His left, `Go awayfrom Me you cursed to the fire everlasting that which is prepared for the Adversary (Satana) and his angels (not 'Jinn')." (Mattai [Matthew] 25:41)

Shlama, Craig
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#9
""Sorry, I do not believe that Allah is the same deity, and I would remiss if I didn't warn you of what Christian theology holds is going to happen to you after you die:

""

Good work Craig. Allah is one of the "original" 300 Arab gods aka fallen angels.
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#10
drmlanc Wrote:""Sorry, I do not believe that Allah is the same deity, and I would remiss if I didn't warn you of what Christian theology holds is going to happen to you after you die:

16. And there came one offering himself and saying, "Benevolent educator, what good deeds shall I perform so I may have eternal life?"*
17. However, he told him, "Why did you call me benevolent? There is no one benevolent, except for One, God. If you wish to enter into Life [everlasting,] obey the commandments."
18. He said to him, "Which?" Jesus then told him, that you shall not kill, and you shall not fornicate and you shall not steal and you shall not testify in condemnation.*
19. "And honor your father and mother, and love your best friend as yourself."
20. That young man said to him, "All these I have obeyed since my childhood. What am I missing?"
21. Jesus said to him, "If you want to be mature, go sell your personal assets and give to the poor and you will have a place in heaven, and come, follow me."

He said nothing about "accept me as the son of God." In fact, he refused to be called "good" in that only God is good. Christian theology is interchangable for Paul's theology, Craig. According to Paul, I will rot in hell (as I am sure you deem as just). But Paul was a charlatan, so I am hardly afraid.

""

Good work Craig. Allah is one of the "original" 300 Arab gods aka fallen angels.

Allah was worshipped as the one true God amongst pre-Islamic tribes. However, they believed that he was unable to be reached without intercessors. Their worship was liken onto the worship of the Roman Catholic Church, for instance, thus attributing partners to Him. But you would know nothing about the Unity of God, would you?

21. "It is not whoever says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord,'
who enters the Kingdom of Heaven,
except whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven.
22. "Many will say to me on that day,
'My Lord, my Lord, did we not prophesy in your name
and in your name cast out demons
and in your name perform great powers?'
23. "And then I will declare to them that, I never knew you,
go away from me, workers of abomination.

Thus is the fate of the Paulist.


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???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#11
Listen to me fellas, ( <!-- s:angry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/angry.gif" alt=":angry:" title="Angry" /><!-- s:angry: --> )

You two of you really ticked me off by implying that I am hell-bound because I serve God in a way you choose not to. If I post any further, it's not going to be pretty <!-- s:mad: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/mad.gif" alt=":mad:" title="Mad" /><!-- s:mad: --> . Therefore, I have decided to act as an observer instead of a participant. As a man, I am going to step back, hold my tongue, and apologize. I will only participate when Qnoma is discussed.

Shlama

bar-Khela
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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