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"Christians" in Peshitta
#1
I'm not sure exactly what my question is, but I am finding this curious. The new testament includes the word "christian" 3 times, either in singular or plural. It makes sense as a transliteration of Christianos, the root of which being Christos -- all very greek and it makes perfect sense.

So the three verses in question, Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, when you look them up in Peshitta you find the word krystiana , what looks to be a transliteration of the greek rather than a true aramaic word in its own right.

It makes sense in the context of Acts 11:26. All it says is that in the city of Antioch, which is somewhere on the border between the regions of Galatia and Asia, in which the lingua franca was presumably greek, that followers of a certain Christos were given the nickname of Christians. But it makes less sense in Acts 26:28, coming from the mouth of the very semitic king Agrippa. In the greek version I would expect to see it but in the aramaic original? Is that really what he said? Is that what Luqa wrote?

Also Keepa uses the term in his first letter which appears to be specifically addressed to diaspora jewish christians.

I suppose my question is two-fold: was krystiana a term that aramaic-speakers in the first century used to refer to followers of Yshwa Mshika and if so, what are we to take away from that? Is that telling of a certain influence of the hellenists on the early development of the church? Does it take anything away from the aramaic primacy argument?

Anyway, that's all I have.
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#2
P.s. is there a way to put unicode greek/aramaic letters in the body of a post without crashing the forum software?
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#3
bknight Wrote:I'm not sure exactly what my question is, but I am finding this curious. The new testament includes the word "christian" 3 times, either in singular or plural. It makes sense as a transliteration of Christianos, the root of which being Christos -- all very greek and it makes perfect sense.

So the three verses in question, Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, when you look them up in Peshitta you find the word krystiana , what looks to be a transliteration of the greek rather than a true aramaic word in its own right.


Anyway, that's all I have.
Hi Akhi (my friend)

3 times the Greek loanword for Christian. That's not bad for a country who's neighbours spoke Greek? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#4
distazo Wrote:
bknight Wrote:I'm not sure exactly what my question is, but I am finding this curious. The new testament includes the word "christian" 3 times, either in singular or plural. It makes sense as a transliteration of Christianos, the root of which being Christos -- all very greek and it makes perfect sense.

So the three verses in question, Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, when you look them up in Peshitta you find the word krystiana , what looks to be a transliteration of the greek rather than a true aramaic word in its own right.


Anyway, that's all I have.
Hi Akhi (my friend)

3 Greek loan-words. That's not bad for a country who's neighbours spoke Greek? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

And I'm not sure calling Marcus Julius Agrippa, of the Herodian family, a "Semite" is a totally accurate statement. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> If I found the Peshitta to record Agrippa saying the Aramaic "Meshikhaya", I would highly suspect it was a translation of his original word "Krystiana".

BTW - There are lots of loanwords in the Aramaic of the Peshitta (Greek, Latin, Persian, etc.)

+Shamasha
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#5
bknight Wrote:I'm not sure exactly what my question is, but I am finding this curious. The new testament includes the word "christian" 3 times, either in singular or plural.

bknight Wrote:I suppose my question is two-fold: was krystiana a term that aramaic-speakers in the first century used to refer to followers of Yshwa Mshika and if so, what are we to take away from that?
No, it was a term that the Greek speaking non-believers dubbed the Believers. If you check with such as with Agrippa the ones using this terminology are non-believers, and no where do you ever find any of the believers (even in the Greek translation) referring to themselves as a "Christian" or their belief as that of "Christianity".

bknight Wrote:Is that telling of a certain influence of the hellenists on the early development of the church?
No, it is telling that the Hellenist non-believers called the Believers by this term, kinda like English people would use the term "The Anointed One" instead of the Greek term of "Christos", all the while Hebrew speaking folks would have used the term "HaMoshiach", and Aramaic folks "M?sheekha". But as far as the Hellenist influencing the Believers you will never find anywhere in which they themselves claimed to be Christians must less of having a belief in Christianity (not even in the Hellenist translation). The only place one might find such is in English translations that are of the non-literal type, in which it is based more of willfulness to separate one's self from anything of the Yehudim faith as opposed to any factual basis within the Aramaic or Greek ReNewed Covenant texts.

bknight Wrote:Does it take anything away from the Aramaic primacy argument?
By no means!!! Aramaic is the Oldest and Best Texts that we have in our possession to this date, period. The Greek text show them selves to be at least poor translations of the Eastern Aramaic PeshittA or at best poor translations of a mother Text of which the Eastern Aramaic PeshittA would have been made from. This last scenario has no evidence at the moment to support it so we must stick with the first one, whole heatedly, for now.
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#6
Shlama Akhi Will,

Considering your above statements, please explain the occurance of "Christian" in The Eastern PeshittA text of 1 Peter 4:16.

"But if he suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on account of this name." -Murdock
"But if he suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify Aloha in that very name." -Etheridge

Here is a note on this verse by our dear Brother.

"The reader may well be surprised to find this term in the Aramaic text. However, it was actually a term which was placed upon the believers by their peers and townsfolk first in the city of Antioch, as explained in Abde? d?Shleekhe? (Acts) 11:26. Antioch was not a predominantly Jewish city, although there was a large population there, which explains why the students of Yeshu'a, and the subsequent missionaries spent a good deal of time in that location. The interaction between Hebrew and Gentile in that city would have been far more common a thing than the interaction between the same individuals in the land of Yeesra?El. Thus, while the believers in Yeesra?El were known commonly as followers of a sect of Judaism, those abroad started to become known as Kreestyane? -- Christians, from the Greek term for ?Messiah.? Thus, literally, they were being called Messianics, if one desired to be absolutely technical about it. The name had nothing to do with any Greek or pagan deity, but was an appropriate term given the language of the people for those who were trusting in the Man they called ?Messiah.?

Also read the note on this verse in the AENT, for further edification.

Blessings,
Chuck

.
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#7
Brother Chuck,

I do not have a copy of the AENT so I will not be able to read the footnote there, although I wish I did.

But as to answer your question, I will present the following, not as an attack on anyone, but rather to help clarify the stance I have taken concerning the texts referenced, and why I think that the Greek loan word "Krystiana" in no way give credence to Greek supremacy:


Nazarenes vs Christianity

Who were the Nazarenes?
The first believers in Yehoshua were a Yehudaish[Jewish] sect known as "Nazarenes" or in Hebrew "Netzarim" (Acts 11:19; 24:5). The christianity "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as those "... who accept The Anointed One in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Torah." {Jerome; On. Is. 8:14}.

Elsewhere he writes:
"Today there still exists among the Yehudeem[Jews] in all the synagogues of the East a heresy which is called that of the Min?ans,and which is still condemned by the Pharisees; [its followers] are ordinarily called 'Nazarenes'; they believe that The Anointed One, the Son of Eloheem, was born of the Virgin Meiryam[Mary], and they hold Him to be The One Who suffered under Pontius Pilate and ascended to Heaven, and in Whom we also believe."
{Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine}

A fourth century christianity "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed description:
"But these sectarians ... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Yehudeem[Jews]. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Yehudeem[Jews] do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Torah proclaims it and in the Yehudaish[Jewish] fashion-- except for their belief in The Anointed One, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that Eloheem is one, and that His Son is Yehoshua The Anointed One. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Torah, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Yehudeem[Jews]. By the Law--circumcision, they are different from the Yehudeem[Jews], and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Yehudeem[Jews] because they have come to faith in The Anointed One; but since they are still fettered by the Torah--circumcision, the Shabbawth, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Yehudeem[Jews].... They have the Goodnews according to MattithYahu[Matthew] in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written."
{Epiphanius; Panarion 29}

Nazarene Yehudaism[Judaism] maintains a belief in Yehoshua as The Anointed One. We do not leave the Yehudish[Jewish] identity, heritage and culture to "convert" to a new or foreign religion. To some the concept of Yehudeem[Jews] believing in Yehoshua and practicing Yehudaism[Judaism] is a contradiction in terms. The common wisdom is that on the one side you have Yehudeem[Jews] and Yehudaism[Judaism], and on the other you have Gentiles and Christianity. However in the first century there were literally hundreds of thousands of Yehudish[Jewish] followers of Yehoshua (Acts 2:41, 47; 4:4; 6:7; 9:31; 21:20) they were zealous for the Torah (Acts 15:19-21; 21:17-27) and met in synagogues (Yahakobe[James] 1:1, 2:2). The big question then was, had Yehoshua come for the Gentiles as well (Acts 10; Acts 15). The greatest paradox in history eventually occurred, for today people question how one can follow Yehoshua and remain Yehudish[Jewish].

Today many are seeking to put Yehoshua back into the context of first century Yehudaism [Judaism]. Nazarene Yehudaism[Judaism] is a spiritual renaissance, a revival, a return to the pure Trust of first century Nazarenes. A return to the TaNaKh and to the root of the olive tree (Rom. 11).

As the prophet YirmehYahu[Jeremiah] tells us:
Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is, and walk in it: And you shall find rest for your souls....
"
{YirmehYahu[Jeremiah] 6:16}

Nazarenes refrain from calling themselves Christians. The first use of the term Christian was among the pagans of Antioch to describe in a derogatory fashion the Gentile followers of Yehoshua (Acts 11:26).

Nazarenes are Yahwists and do not feel compelled to completely censor the use of the Divine Name (YirmehYahu[Jeremiah] 23:27). They were in some cases martyred for publicly reciting a drash of Ps.110:1-2 in which the Divine Name was used while connecting Yehoshua to the right hand of YHWH.

Nazarenes recognize the seventh day-- a.k.a.: frigg's-day evening to saturn's-day evening --as the Shabbawth (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; 32:12-17).

We still observe the rite of circumcision for YisraAilites[Israelites]. We observe the Consecrated Days described in Lev. 23 which are to be "celebrated as a perpetual statute throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places... forever" (Lev. 23:14; 21; 31; 41).

Shaul/Powlos[Paul] the Pharisee
Another important figure to the early Nazarenes was Shaul/Powlos[Paul]. Shaul/Powlos[Paul] was a ringleader of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5). Shaul/Powlos[Paul] was of Pharisaic background (Acts. 23:6) and had been a student of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) the grandson of Hillel. Shaul/Powlos[Paul] was at first an enemy of the Nazarene movement, however after his vision on the road to Damascus, he became a ringleader of the movement. Kayf [Peter] tells us that Shaul's/Powlos's[Paul's] writings are "hard to understand" (2Kayf [2Peter] 3:15- 16). Shaul/Powlos[Paul] knew that his teachings were being twisted and that he was misunderstood as teaching against the Torah (Rom. 3:8; 6:1-2, 15). Shaul/Powlos[Paul] went to great lengths to prove that this was not true (Acts 21:20-26). Shaul/Powlos[Paul] commended those whom double checked his teaching with the Old Covenant Scriptures (Acts 17:11), as they did not have the ReNewed Covenant at that time other than perhaps to check over to see if these new writings lined up with the Old Covenant Scriptures.

98 C.E. The Ignatious Conspiracy
Many people have been misled into believing that Constantine was responsible for the corruption and Gentilization of Christianity.

While Constantine certainly added to the apostasy of early Christianity, he was not the first. It was in fact Ignatius of Antioch who rebelled against the Yerushalayim[Jerusalem] Council, usurped their authority, seceded from Yehudaism[Judaism], declared the Torah to have been abolished, replaced the Seventh Day Shabbawth with sun's-day worship and founded a new, non-Yehudaish[non-Jewish] religion which HE COINED "Christianity".

Shaul/Powlos[Paul] said to the Ephesians on his last visit to them:
Watch, therefore, over yourselves and over the flock which the Ruakh HaKodesh has appointed you Overseers[Bishops] that you feed the Assembly of The Anointed One, which He purchased by His blood. I know that after I am gone fierce wolves will enter in among you without mercy upon the flock. And also from among you there will rise up men speaking perverse things, so that they might turn away the disciples to follow after them.
{Acts 20:28-30}

Shaul/Powlos[Paul] indicated that after his death leaders would begin to rise up from the Overseers[Bishops] in his stead that would draw people to follow themselves and draw them away from Torah. In fact Shaul/Powlos[Paul] died in 66 C.E. and the first Overseer[Bishop] of Antioch to take office after his death was Ignatius in 98 C.E.. Ignatius fulfilled Shaul's/Powlos's[Paul's] words precisely. After taking the office of Overseer[Bishop] over Antioch Ignatius sent out a series of epistles to other Assemblies. His letters to the Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallianns, Romans, Philadelphians and Smyrnaeans as well as a personal letter to Polycarp Overseer of Smyrnaea have survived to us to this day. The Ancient Nazarene Historian and commentator Hegesippus (c. 180 CE) writes of the time immediately following the death of Shim'on, who succeeded Yahakobe HaTzadik [James the Just] as Nasi of the Nazarene Sanhedrin and who died in 98 CE:
"Up to that period (98 CE) the Assembly had remained like a virgin pure and uncorrupted: for, if there were any persons who were disposed to tamper with the wholesome rule of the proclaiming of salvation, they still lurked in some dark place of concealment or other. But, when the sacred band of Emissaries had in various ways closed their lives, and that generation of men to whom it had been vouchsafed to listen to the inspired Wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then did the confederacy of Eloheemless error take its rise through the treachery of false teachers, who, seeing that none of the Emissaries any longer survived, at length attempted with bare and uplifted head to oppose the proclaiming of the truth by proclaiming "knowledge falsely so called."
{Hegesippus the Nazarene; c. 185 CE; quoted by Eusebius in Eccl. Hist. 3:32}

Hegisippus indicates the apostasy began the very same year that Ignatious became Overseer [Bishop] of Antioch!

Up until the time of Ignatius, matters of dispute that arose at Antioch were ultimately referred to the Yerushalayim[Jerusalem] Council (as in Acts 14:26-15:2). Ignatius usurped the authority of the Yerushalayim[Jerusalem] Council, declaring himself as the local Overseer[Bishop] as the ultimate authority over the Assembly of which he was Overseer[Bishop], and likewise declaring the same as true of all other Overseers[Bishops] and their local Assemblies. Ignatius writes:
"?being subject to your Overseer[Bishop]? ?run together according to the will of GoD.
Jesus? is sent by the will of the Father; As the Overseer[Bishop]? are by the will of Jesus Christ."
{Eph. 1:9, 11}

"?your Overseer[Bishop]?I think you happy who are so joined to him, as the church is to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is to the Father? Let us take heed therefore, that we not set ourselves against the Overseer[Bishop], that we may be subject to GoD?. We ought to look upon the Overseer[Bishop], even as we would upon the Lord Himself."
{Eph. 2:1-4}

"?obey your Overseer[Bishop]?"
{Mag. 1:7}

"Your Overseer[Bishop] presiding in the place of GoD? ?be you united to your Overseer[Bishop]?"
{Mag. 2:5, 7}

"?he? that does anything without the Overseer[Bishop]? is not pure in his conscience?"
{Tral. 2:5}

"?Do nothing without the Overseer[Bishop]."
{Phil. 2:14}

"See that you all follow your Overseer[Bishop], As Jesus Christ, the Father?"
{Smy. 3:1}

By exalting the power of the office of Overseer[Bishop] and demanding the absolute authority of the Overseer[Bishop] over the Assembly, Ignatius was actually making a power grab by thus taking absolute authority over the Assembly at Antioch and encouraging other Gentile Overseer[Bishop] to follow suite.

Moreover Ignatius drew men away from Torah and declared the Torah to have been abolished, not only at Antioch but at other Gentile Assemblies to which he wrote:
"Be not deceived with strange doctrines; nor with old fables which are unprofitable. For if we still continue to live according to the Yehudaish[Jewish] Torah, we do confess ourselves not to have received grace?"
{Mag. 3:1}

"But if any one shall preach the Yehudaish[Jewish] Torah unto you, hearken not unto him?"
{Phil. 2:6}

It is also Ignatius who first replaces the Seventh Day Shabbawth with sun's-day worship, writing:
"...no longer observing Shabbawths, but keeping the lord's[ba'al's] day in which also our life is sprung up by him, and through his death..."
{Magnesians 3:3}

Having seceded from the authority of Yerushalayim[Jerusalem], declared the Torah abolished and replacing the Shabbawth with sun's-day, Ignatius had created a new religion. Ignatius coins a new term, never before used, for this new religion which he calls "Christianity" and which he makes clear is new and distinct religion from Yehudaism[Judaism]. He writes:
"let us learn to live according to the rules of Christianity, for whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of GoD?. It is absurd to name Jesus Christ, and to Yehudaize [Judaize]. For the Christian religion did not embrace the Yehudaish[Jewish]. But the Yehudaish [Jewish] the Christian?"
{Mag. 3:8, 11}

By the end of the first century Ignatius of Antioch had fulfilled Shaul's/Powlos's[Paul's] warning. He seceded from Yehudaism[Judaism] and founded a new religion which he called "Christianity". A religion which rejected the Torah, and replaced the Seventh Day Shabbawth with sun's-day worship.

132 C.E. The Bar Kokhba Revolt
In 132 a second Yehudaish[Jewish] revolt against Rome began. The Emperor Hadrian banned circumcision. In reaction the Yehudeem[Jews] (Nazarenes and Pharisees) alike, took up arms. During the revolt Akiva, a leading Pharisee Rabbi at the time, declared the leading Yehudaish [Jewish] general known as Bar Kosiba to be The Anointed One. Bar Kosiba was renamed Bar Kochba (son of the star) and was declared The Anointed One based on Num. 24:17.

The Nazarenes could not accept Bar Kokhba as The Anointed One and so they left the army. From this time forward Nazarenes were labeled "meshumed" (traitor). Though the Pharisees later admitted Bar Kokhba was not The Anointed One, their resentment toward the Nazarenes for refusing to follow him continued.

After the Romans defeated the Yehudeem[Jews] around 132 C.E. Yehudah the last of recorded Nazarene Nasi was exiled with the rest of the Yehudeem[Jews] from Yerushalayim [Jerusalem]. A Gentile Christian named Markus was made Bishop of Yerushalayim[Jerusalem] in his stead.

The Council of Nicea
In 325 C.E. A Pagan Gentile named Constantine conquered Rome and made himself emperor. Constantine , although a Pagan himself, declared Christianity to be the Catholic (Latin: universal) religion, thus making Christianity the enforced state religion of the Roman empire.

Constantine, who was an anti-Semite called the council of Nicea in 325 C.E. to standardize Christianity. Nazarenes were excluded from the meeting. Yehudaish[Jewish] practices were banned. For the first time Gentile Christianity officially labled the Nazarenes as apostates. From this time forward Nazarenes begin to be listed in the catalogs of apostate movements (the first of these to include the Nazarenes was Epiphanius's "Panarion" (around 370 C.E.).

The Assimilation
By the fourth century the Nazarenes had communities in Beorea near Colesyria, in the Decapolis near Pella, and at Bashanitis at the place called Kokhba. (Epiphanius; Pan. 29). However, the Nazarenes by this time were a small sect which Epiphanius described as "small," "like an insect." (ibid)

According to a tradition preserved by the Assyrian Christians known as Nestorians, these Nazarenes escaped the Roman empire into the Parthian Empire to its east. Here they either assimilated into the Nestorian Church of the East, finding fellowship with there fellow Semite Assyrians, or they were wiped out by the rise of Islam.

Today many of us are working to reconstruct the ancient sect of Nazarene Yehudaism [Judaism]. Again as the prophet YirmehYahu[Jeremiah] tells us:
Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is, and walk in it: And you shall find rest for your souls....
"
(YirmehYahu[Jeremiah] 6:16)

As far as the original Believers it is good to know that they were called the sect of the Nazarenes and never referred to themselves as Christians now by Christianity. Christianity was not concocted as a heresy until 98 AD by Ignatious. So when it is claimed that Christianities roots go back to the 1st century it is true! Yet those whom practiced Christianity at it's conception, according to their adversarial spirit, had a hatred for the true Followers (i.e. The Nazarenes) and persecuted them every chance they got, if not by physical force then by words of discord and hatred toward anything or anyone of the Yehudish Trust.

Again the presence of the Greek loanword "Krystiana" in the Good News by no way shows that the Hellenist had any effect upon the 1st century Believers.
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#8
Will,

The term Christian is validated by The Apostle Peter right there in 1 Peter 4:16. And there is NO shame in that name. It is what the Gentile believers in Messiah/Christ were/are called from about 44 A.D. till this day. And as today, they/we are called many names, some not so nice...

Saint Ignatius, whom you seem to slander, being misled by others...a holy martyr of our Master and Savior, was set in the office of Bishop of Alaha's Church in Antioch, by The Apostles themselves. Do not confuse true Christians/Nazarenes, with that sect who brought another gospel (false), which The Apostle Paul warned us all about in his letters. Those were false brothers.

They didn't keep "the whole Torah", and neither do you, Will. If one were to keep "the whole Torah", they would be an offense to The Cross and an enemy of The Messiah...And if you don't keep every bit of it...you are breaking all of it! But, you/we are saved and sanctified by no one and nothing but The Messiah and what He did for us, not the least bit of anything you/we might try to do for ourselves.

I'll post the AENT note later...

Shlama,
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#9
Thirdwoe Wrote:The term Christian is validated by The Apostle Peter right there in 1 Peter 4:16. And there is NO shame in that name. It is what the Gentile believers in Messiah/Christ were/are called from about 44 A.D. till this day. And as today, they/we are called many names, some not so nice...

The term Christians was one of them, it was a derogatory term in which Kayph[Peter] said not to be ashamed when heathen call you by that term. He never validated it, nor did he ever claim to be one. No Apostle ever claimed to be one, but they did claim to be Nazarenes. Ignatius Coined the term Christianity, not the Apostles.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Ignatius... ... ... was set in the office of Bishop of Alaha's Church in Antioch, by The Apostles themselves.

First of all the Apostle were all dead by this time, and secondly just as Shaul prophesied, awmayn!


Thirdwoe Wrote:Do not confuse true ... Nazarenes, with that sect who brought another gospel (false), which The Apostle Paul warned us all about in his letters. Those were false brothers.
Shaul was referencing the Essenes in the instance you are speaking of, and yes they where false teachers as well. So we have Shaul teaching the true Believers to steer clear of two different groups - the Essene's and Ignatius's teachings. I recommend reading the book "Path To Life", by Andrew Gabriel Roth, which shows that Shaul was warning the Believers of the Essene sect.


Thirdwoe Wrote:I'll post the AENT note later...
Shlama,
Please do. And while this thread is about the term "Krystiana", I must refrain from chasing you down the proverbial rabbit trail. If you want to talk about salvational issues please start a thread on that subject or at least find one that is. We should stick with the subject matter at hand on the principles of etiquette (a.k.a. - couth).
Reply
#10
Will,

Looks like you have some bad teaching there. Where did you get it? It?s best to brush up on the facts so as to not lead people astray.

Where does it say that Ignatius coined the term "Christianity", and yes, he was installed Bishop of Antioch by The Apostles, whom he knew, who were indeed alive in the late 60s of the 1st century, when he was appointed by them to be the 3rd Bishop of The Assembly in Antioch. He died a Martyr for Messiah in Rome, having served Him for 86 years. He was thrown to the wild beasts to be eaten by them by the heathen for witnessing of Messiah, while not denying Him till death?and you would slander him? You should burn those books that have slandered him.

The Followers of Christ/Messiah were 1st called Christians in Antioch from about 44 A.D. and they/we have used it since then. I've heard the claim that it was a "derogatory term" that non-believers called them...might be true, might not be...But it's not said in Scripture and I have seen zero evidence to back up that claim in any other ancient writing to validate the teaching. Do you have one?

And I'm not talking about salvational issues, but correcting some false teachings. If you don't want to be a Christian, and you prefer to stay outside of The Church, and teach false doctrines and mislead people...that is your bad choice. I call you to Repent and stop slandering what Alaha has established for His glory, His Church, and cease from dissing Alaha's People, and subverting Alaha's Truth. Ignorance is no excuse...you will be held accountable.

The Apostle Peter said "But if he suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify Alaha in that very name."

Glorify Alaha in that very name --->Christian. Do you suffer in that very name, Will? Do you glorify Alaha in that very name, Will? Or do you despise it instead?

This thread is about the name "Christian" in the Peshitta...and it's in there alright, and it's valid and good too.

You said:
Quote:which Kayph[Peter] said not to be ashamed when heathen call you by that term.

Nope: He didn't utter such a thing, that's putting words in his mouth and adding to Alaha's Holy Word. It says "let him not be ashamed" "if he suffer as a Christian" Read the context please, it has nothing to do with the heathen calling them a bad name.

And just to be clear... THE CHURCH That Alaha established through The Messiah, by His Apostles/Shlikha, has always been in the Earth from the 1st century down to this 21st century, and satan and his heretics have not caused it to become extinct. Heresies become extinct though, and sometimes come back to life in a new generation. But The Messiah's Church has never been defeated, come what may.


..
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#11
Thirdwoe Wrote:he was installed Bishop of Antioch by The Apostles, whom he knew, who were indeed alive in the late 60s of the 1st century, when he was appointed by them to be the 3rd Bishop of The Assembly in Antioch.
My BAD, I got the years confused for a second, but Shaul was dead at that point - hence his prophecy fulfilled.

Thirdwoe Wrote:And I'm not talking about salvational issues, but correcting some false teachings.
Thirdwoe Wrote:They didn't keep "the whole Torah", and neither do you, Will. If one were to keep "the whole Torah", they would be an offense to The Cross and an enemy of The Messiah...And if you don't keep every bit of it...you are breaking all of it! But, you/we are saved and sanctified by no one and nothing but The Messiah and what He did for us, not the least bit of anything you/we might try to do for ourselves.

Are your pants on firer yet?

Thirdwoe Wrote:Do not confuse true ... Nazarenes, with that sect who brought another gospel (false), which The Apostle Paul warned us all about in his letters.

{Acts 24:14}
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Eloah of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Torah and in the Prophets:
{2 Peter 3:15-18}
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Adon is salvation; even as our beloved brother Powlos also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Adon and Savior Yehoshua The Anointed One. To him be glory both now and for ever. Awmayn.
{Romans 2:12-13}
12 For as many as have sinned without Torah shall also perish without Torah: and as many as have sinned in the Torah shall be judged by the Torah;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before Eloah, but the doers of the Torah shall be justified.

ThirdWoe you can trash the Torah if you like but keep in mind what Yehoshua said -
{Matthew 5:17}
Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
{YoKhawnawn[John] 10:10}
The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
{Proverbs 6:23-24}
23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the Torah is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
24 To keep thee from the evil ... ... ...
{Romans 8:1-2}
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in The Anointed One Yehoshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the Torah of the Spirit of life in The Anointed One Yehoshua hath made me free from the Torah of sin and death.

I call you to Repent and stop slandering what Eloah has established for His glory, His Assembly, and cease from dissing Eloah's People, and subverting Eloah's Truth. Ignorance is no excuse...you will be held accountable.


Thirdwoe Wrote:The Apostle Peter said "But if he suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify Alaha in that very name."

Glorify Alaha in that very name --->Christian. Do you suffer in that very name, Will? Do you glorify Alaha in that very name, Will? Or do you despise it instead?
Personally, I have not been accused of being one yet, so I have no need to glory in it. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But as for now I glory in you calling me a heretic, and give praise to Eloah, awmayn.
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#12
Thirdwoe Wrote:1 Peter 4:16 ... ... ... read the note on this verse in the AENT, for further edification.
If you read the rest of Andrew's notes in the AENT (such as that of Colossians 2:16) you would know that by no means was he trying to teach Torah was done away with. So please do not try and wrest Andrew's foot notes (as you do unto Shaul's/Powlos's writings and the rest of Scripture) as a means to justify your sect of Christianity, as that would be seriously taking him out of context.
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#13
Will,

Both The Apostles Peter and Paul, were still alive in 67 and most of the others were as well, when Ignatius was installed. Ignatius was their true Brother and fellow servant of Messiah, and was well known by them for many years before his ordination as Bishop of the Assembly in Antioch. They considered him to be Orthodox in the True Faith, or he would not have been given this honor to serve Messiah's body. He was the 2nd Bishop of Antioch after Evodius, he being the 1st installed, not including Peter.

The name Christian, was/is never a shame to any true follower of Messiah. It's held in honor in Alaha's Word in The Peshitta, and so should you. Do you think it's a shame to be called a Christian, or to use that term as a follower of Messiah? If so, again, I call you to repent.

Also, you sound like a "I know you are but what am I" kind of guy with your comebacks there. Sorry, I'm not one of those types, so I won't play along with you.

Peter 4:16 "But if he suffer as a Kristianay,(15) let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify Elohim on account of this name." -AENT

(15) ..."Like the citation in Acts, Peter also employs the term used by and for Greek followers, rather than the Aramaic Mishkhanee, indicating that he is specifically encouraging the Greek followers of Y'shua." -Roth

"suffer as a Kristianay"


.
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#14
Thirdwoe Wrote:Will,

Both The Apostles Peter and Paul, were still alive in 67 and most of the others were as well, when Ignatius was installed.
I will do some more study on this just in case your right but do not take that as you won me over just yet.


Ignatius was their true Brother and fellow servant of Messiah, and was well known by them for many years before his ordination as Bishop of the Assembly in Antioch. [/quote]
One really never knows one's true colors until they either strike it rich with money or with power. It doesn't matter what they thought when they voted him it it is what he taught after he gain authority. I have quoted him above and will not rehash over such other than to say if he was such a true follower then why did he and Polycarp not agree on the fact that the Apostles taught keeping Passover on the 14th of the first month yet Ignatius taught contrary to such. It is a fact that Polycarp taught that we should continue as YoKhawnawn taught him as with the other disciples to continue observing Passover on the 14th, and that Ignatius taught that it was heretical to do so. So which is it to you Chuck - either Polycarp was a heretic or Ignatius -what say you? Personally I will take Polycarp's teaching over Ignatius any day!


Thirdwoe Wrote:Peter 4:16 "But if he suffer as a Kristianay,(15) let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify Elohim on account of this name." -AENT

(15) ..."Like the citation in Acts, Peter also employs the term used by and for Greek followers, rather than the Aramaic Mishkhanee, indicating that he is specifically encouraging the Greek followers of Y'shua." -Roth
Well according to Roth's footnote I see as to why I have not been accused of being a Christian, as I am not, nor never was a Goy/Gentile pagan. I was born in the line of Abrawhawm, that of the Hebrew Nation. So, other than the fact I do not agree with much of what many considered as Christian, perhaps being I was not nor ever will be a Goy/Gentile is why I have not suffered being called one. And if we are to keep the verse in context it says IF YOU SUFFER in which I have not, therefore I never could of had need to Glory Eloah in that name. Gotta be one before one to start with before they could do as percribed. And according to Roth's Note I will never qualify to be one either, good enough for me, but if you want to be called by such you just go right on ahead, no skin off my back.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Do you think it's a shame to be called a Christian, or to use that term as a follower of Messiah? If so, again, I call you to repent.
In the way in which Roth's note put it then no if you are a goy (but I would like to read more of Roth's notes to be sure that is in context of what he said). So if that is true that it was a term used to describe goyim that converted then let them glory in Eloah. But as for the sect of Christianity Ignatius taught I will never turn from the Glory of YHWH to join hands in such. So no matter what Chuck I can not, nor would I ever want to repent here.



Thirdwoe Wrote:Also, you sound like a "I know you are but what am I" kind of guy with your comebacks there. Sorry, I'm not one of those types, so I won't play along with you.
If anything it is I whom stepped into you mess, and I tried not to - I really did.

Anyway if you really want to pretend that you are tired of playing your own little game, you know the one where you ask your a question in which you intend on answering (yeah that one), then feel free to stop! If you have something to add to a conversation then do so with out the pretension that you are being victimized when your your little game does not go as plained. Look if some one asks you a question feel free to answer it, but if you just feel like preaching then do not try and hide it in the form of a question <!-- s:crazy: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/crazy.gif" alt=":crazy:" title="Crazy" /><!-- s:crazy: --> , either start a thread or wait until someone ask you <!-- s:whaasup: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/whaasup.gif" alt=":whaasup:" title="Whaasup" /><!-- s:whaasup: --> and then tell your story <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: --> . Oky Dooky?
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#15
Paul Younan Wrote:And I'm not sure calling Marcus Julius Agrippa, of the Herodian family, a "Semite" is a totally accurate statement. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> If I found the Peshitta to record Agrippa saying the Aramaic "Meshikhaya", I would highly suspect it was a translation of his original word "Krystiana".

BTW - There are lots of loanwords in the Aramaic of the Peshitta (Greek, Latin, Persian, etc.)

+Shamasha
Shlama Paul,

Forgive me, but wasn't Agrippa I a grandson of Herod the Great, an edomite? Edom was a descendant of Shem, so I stand by my statement. On the other hand, I don't doubt he spoke greek as his first language, so I can see your point.

Agree with you that Aramaic, much like every language in the history of languages, contains loan words from the languages of neighboring peoples. My question was whether there was another name which the earliest christians called themselves by -- to which you and Will and Chuck all gave your two cents worth -- and why (specifically) Keepa in his first epistle would use the greek name when addressing non-greeks.

Thanks for the wonderful dialogue anyway.
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