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"El" is not Aramaic!
#1
Shlama Lokhun i am new is this forum i am Chaldean, i wanted to talk about the wod "El" wich is i think of Hebrew origin but why Dukhrana.com dont say it?
it comes only 1 time in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 when Jesus is quoting the Psalm , even the Aramaic people did not knew what this word was wich sounds like Eliya: ( Dr. James Murdock) Matthew 27:47 - Some of the men who were standing by, when they heard it, said, This man has called for Elijah.

or even here it is translated in Aramaic because the word for God is Alaha not "Il" or "El" (Dr. James Murdock) Mark 15:34 - And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, and said: Il, Il, lemono shebakthone; THAT IS: My God, my God; why hast thou forsaken me ?

so maybe i am wrong but i am native speaker and i never knew this word just like the Average people at the time that where standing before the Cross who's language was Aramaic and did not knew this Hebrew word "El' because only Rabi's like Jesus knew the 'dead' Hebrew language.

i would like to hear Shamasha Younan about this or someone else from this forum Please Thanks in advance,
Alaha Naterokhun.
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#2
Shlama Aloukh Qadi$aAlaha,

Actually the word 'El' is an ancient proto-Semitic root and predates both Hebrew and Aramaic (both of which use it), the Aramaic 'Alaha' is the emphatic form of the root 'El/Al' (Aleph-Lamed). It is found in Akkadian as well (Babel/Babylon = "bab-ilu", "gate of god"). Ugaritic, Phoenician, Arabic and all the Semitic languages use this root.

+Shamasha

PS - my great grandfather was a Qasha in the Chaldean Church.
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#3
Also, the Greek of Matthew records Jesus crying out "Eli, Eli". "Eli" is Hebrew for "My God". Matthew is generally agreed to have been written in Aramaic, so the Aramaic most likely said "Elohi" (first person possessive of "Eloah"). "Elohi" cannot be written in Greek, because Greek lacks an "h" sound. This is why Mark says "Eloi", but it should be pronounced as "Elohi". "Alaha" is simply a different dialect's way to pronounce "Eloah".
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#4
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:This is why Mark says "Eloi", but it should be pronounced as "Elohi". "Alaha" is simply a different dialect's way to pronounce "Eloah".
And that's why in the Peshitta of Mark we have the clarification, translating from one dialect to the other (but the same does not happen in Matthew).
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#5
As far as I can remember, /el/ (on its own) does not appear in Aramaic as a generic word for "god" or "deity" until Imperial Aramaic.

Before then, it specifically referred to the deity, El, or was used in the names of specific deities. The word /elah/ was employed for "god" throughout all of this.

I'd have to poke around my Old Aramaic materials to double-check this though, so do not quote me on it until then. :-)

Peace,
-Steve
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#6
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama Aloukh Qadi$aAlaha,

Actually the word 'El' is an ancient proto-Semitic root and predates both Hebrew and Aramaic (both of which use it), the Aramaic 'Alaha' is the emphatic form of the root 'El/Al' (Aleph-Lamed). It is found in Akkadian as well (Babel/Babylon = "bab-ilu", "gate of god"). Ugaritic, Phoenician, Arabic and all the Semitic languages use this root.

+Shamasha

PS - my great grandfather was a Qasha in the Chaldean Church.

b'Sheyna aziza first i want to tell you that your work is awesome i have actualy assyrian family too

so this semitic generic word 'il' written Alap-Yod-Lamad in syriac (Alap-Lamad in Hebrew) is very primitive like you said used even in akkadian, that word became unknown to the Aramaic-Speaking people at Jesus time because they did not knew what Jesus was saying while quoting the hebrew psalm

Kepp up the good work Alaha tarelokh
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#7
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:Also, the Greek of Matthew records Jesus crying out "Eli, Eli". "Eli" is Hebrew for "My God". Matthew is generally agreed to have been written in Aramaic, so the Aramaic most likely said "Elohi" (first person possessive of "Eloah"). "Elohi" cannot be written in Greek, because Greek lacks an "h" sound. This is why Mark says "Eloi", but it should be pronounced as "Elohi". "Alaha" is simply a different dialect's way to pronounce "Eloah".
"because Greek lacks an "h" sound. This is why Mark says Eloi" thanks for this info i dont know much about greek this is great information, but no in Aramaic we dont say eloh this is hebrew, Psalms 22:2 Eli
Eli, Lemmah EZBTNI

Jesus was not crying for God like he was powerless he was quoting scripture just look how the aramaic-speaking people did not knew what Jesus was crying only the Aramaic word Shwaqtany so they said he is crying help for Eliya

b'Shayna

+ the form eloi (elohy) is even more hebraising
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#8
"Eloah" and "Alaha" are the same word, they mean the same thing. The only reason it is pronounced differently is because of the dialect, so yes, Eloah is an acceptable form in Aramaic. Ask Brother Paul.
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#9
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:"Eloah" and "Alaha" are the same word, they mean the same thing. The only reason it is pronounced differently is because of the dialect, so yes, Eloah is an acceptable form in Aramaic. Ask Brother Paul.
okay so show me one place in the Peshitta where Eloah (this is so Hebrew) is used in place of Alaha? (wich every neo-aramaic speaking christian use)
but one think i find interesting ETHERIDGE Mark 15:34 - And in the ninth hour Jeshu cried with a high voice and said, Il, Il, Lamona Shabaktoni! Which is, Alohi! Alohi! My God, my God !] why hast thou forsaken me ?
why did Mark translate Il to Alaha? because at the time aramaic-speaking people used only Alaha , while El is more common in Hebrew wich they borowed from akkadian (even thaugh this is a root word in every semitic language) Abraham and his pagan family where from mesopotamia,
+ e el-shaday comes from Akkadian: ?add? : mountain, epithet for a deity ;
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#10
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:Also, the Greek of Matthew records Jesus crying out "Eli, Eli". "Eli" is Hebrew for "My God". Matthew is generally agreed to have been written in Aramaic, so the Aramaic most likely said "Elohi" (first person possessive of "Eloah"). "Elohi" cannot be written in Greek, because Greek lacks an "h" sound. This is why Mark says "Eloi", but it should be pronounced as "Elohi". "Alaha" is simply a different dialect's way to pronounce "Eloah".
no doubt Matthew is written in Aramaic hebrew was dead at the time, only rabis knewe to read the torah but they had targoums for the people, but i say it one more time the words of Jesus are nothing more tha na Quote from the Pslam thats why the aramaic-speaking people did not knew what Jesus was saying
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#11
I believe he used "Elohi", rather than "Eli". The possibly didn't understand Him because:

A. He was breathing heavily (victims of crucifixion die of suffocation).
B. His Galilean accent (Matthew 26:73)
C. The physical trauma He had endured was effecting His speech.

It's interesting that some Greek manuscripts of Matthew read "Eloi, Eloi".
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#12
Qadi$aAlaha Wrote:
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:"Eloah" and "Alaha" are the same word, they mean the same thing. The only reason it is pronounced differently is because of the dialect, so yes, Eloah is an acceptable form in Aramaic. Ask Brother Paul.
okay so show me one place in the Peshitta where Eloah (this is so Hebrew) is used in place of Alaha? (wich every neo-aramaic speaking christian use)
but one think i find interesting ETHERIDGE Mark 15:34 - And in the ninth hour Jeshu cried with a high voice and said, Il, Il, Lamona Shabaktoni! Which is, Alohi! Alohi! My God, my God !] why hast thou forsaken me ?
why did Mark translate Il to Alaha? because at the time aramaic-speaking people used only Alaha , while El is more common in Hebrew wich they borowed from akkadian (even thaugh this is a root word in every semitic language) Abraham and his pagan family where from mesopotamia,
+ e el-shaday comes from Akkadian: ?add? : mountain, epithet for a deity ;


I think we forget that the Syriac is a translation to the Syriac dialect of a hypothetical Jewish Aramaic version, which we don't have. So, it's guessing whether or not Yeshu said 'Elohi' or Eli or something else.
In the Syriac, we probably have cases of 'transliterate or not' as well, just like we see in the Greek.
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#13
"Eloah" is used in Daniel, which was written in Aramaic and Hebrew. The original Hebrew Old Testament mainly uses the plural "Elohim" to describe YHWH.
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