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Translations Compared: Eastern or Western?
#46
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:Texas RAT, what are the two Peshitta translations you're speaking of?
Can you be a little more specific?
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#47
:

Brothers... I have updated the list and stats above, with the readings of the Aramaic text of The Way International's "The Aramaic New Testament: Estrangelo Script", which utilizes four 5th-6th century Aramaic Manuscripts, namely MS. ADD 14453, 14470, 14473, and 14475, which are in the British Musuem. Three of the four MS. which contain the variant passages, found in the 22 books are split between the Eastern and Western variants...as shown below.

MS. ADD 14453 -
Eastern: Mark 14:31, Luke 22:17-18 and ??? John 7:53 and John 8:1-11 are in brackets in The Way International's text, so I'm not sure if the actual MS. shows these last two or not. I'm guessing not, thus the brackets, they opting to put them in their text.
Western: Matt 6:32, Matt 21:4, John 16:27

MS. ADD 14473 -
Eastern: Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 28:29
Western: Acts 20:28, James 3:10

MS. ADD 14475 -
Eastern: 2nd Thess 3:18
Western: Philemon 1:25, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:16

..
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#48
I just received my copy of Herb Jahn's Aramaic New Covenant in the mail today and I have to say that I am very pleased with it. You can tell he is a member of the Sacred Name Movement by how he translates "Yeshua" as "Yah Shua", as well as names like "Yochanan" (which becomes "Yah Chanan"). It will be interesting to compare his translation to Bauscher's, since they both stick 100% with the Peshitto.
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#49
:

Yea...it's pretty neat right, for the Peshitto version. It certainly gets the Yoda award though.

Hey...I got the Interlinears from TWI in the mail yesterday...and they are awesome! A true Interlinear, in un-pointed Estrangelo script, numbered to their concordance and Jennings lexicon, plus a stand-alone Aramaic New Testament in Estrangelo Script, which they offer with their matching set of study helps that go with them.

The Interlinear is on the right hand pages, and the left hand pages have the interlinear wording given in translation form, (like J.P.Green's interlinear does) on half the left page (right side) and the left side of the left page has the KJV for comparison...and it's all in a good size font too, thus the 3 volumes.

The Aramaic text itself, both the interlinears and the one volume Aramaic New Testament, is from four of the oldest known MS, from the 5th-6th century for the 22 books, and the Harklean version for the W5. I have found the Aramaic text so far to be a pretty even mix of Eastern and Western readings, with it's text going sometimes with what is found in the UBS edition and sometimes with the text of The Khabouris Manuscript.

I haven't seen any doctrinal bias yet, concerning the Deity of Christ in the few places that I've checked, but need to look at more places. Do you have some verses in mind that I can check?

These books are supper quality and priced half as much and even less than half as Magiera's interlinears and helps, which she says uses the UBS critical text.

Shlama,
Chuck

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#50
I'd check John 1:1-3, 14; 5:18, 8:58; 10:30; 20:28. Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6-8. How do they translate MarYah? Jahn didn't always translate MarYah correctly (if at all) and sometimes translated "Mar" as "Yah Veh" (which is typical of Sacred Name translations).
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#51
Yeah, them Sacred Namers sure know how to twist a text (and langauge).

Here is a short critical examination of the Way's interlinear which addresses some of the Christology,

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rvw_aramaic.htm">http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rvw_aramaic.htm</a><!-- m -->

For Christology, I would also check Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1-3,8, and 1 John 5:20.
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#52
I haven't seen any obvious theological bias in the ANC (Aramaic New Covenant). It's a very literal translation that is sometimes difficult to read! I heard the Way's Interlinear was a very good resource.
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#53
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:I haven't seen any obvious theological bias in the ANC (Aramaic New Covenant). It's a very literal translation that is sometimes difficult to read! I heard the Way's Interlinear was a very good resource.
Yeah, I heard it's an extremely wooden translation! The idioms are apparantly left literal, as is most of the word order from what I remember.

Yeah, I've heard good things about the Way's interlinear as well. And even the critical review I posted above gives it merit. Considering it was done by a team, it may be the most scholarly of all our translations for the Aramaic. I know Chuck you'll want to check it's bias level in comparison to Magiera who is really good in that area. Definitely let us know the results!
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#54
I wish he made a more accurate distinction between Mar and MarYah. It is an important thing that a lot of translators have missed! Etheridge mentioned "Moriah" in a footnote, but never noted that it was applied to Jesus in the Syriac.
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#55
:

Thanks for showing that link Luc, I wished he would have listed the places where he thought they blew it though...none is listed.

Quote:It is clear that the Aramaic interlinear lists accurate readings of many verses which contradict The Way's preferred teachings. Yet, on other verses the interlinear goes out of its way to include wording guaranteed to please Way leaders. Why these differences? Perhaps some of the team members who worked on the book were anxious to please Way leaders, while others intended to reflect the true readings of the Aramaic even when they contradicted The Way's party line.

In summary, The Way's Aramaic publications are hindered by the team's desire to maintain some of its founder's errors. Nonetheless, the books were done with sufficient accuracy to maintain much of the truth of God's Word and provide Christians with new tools to support traditional teachings.

Which "errors" and which "wording" is he talking about? Why even mention this, if he is not going to show at least one example? This is a critical review for godness sake! lol

Anyway...he covers some of the verses already, showing that they support the doctrine of Christ's Deity, not undercut it...I'll show the other verses you guys listed to round it out. But this looks to be awesome...and the fact that it comes from 4 of the oldest texts, is great...we already have 2 1/2 interlinears from the UBS text...which may draw from these 4 as well...but so far, I see more Eastern readings in it, than Western, as the UBS has...though it has it's share as well, and some big ones. These MS, might be copies from the Syriac Othodox Church...I'm not sure of their origins as yet.

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#56
:

Ok...here are the translations of the literal translation of The Way International's Interlinear Aramaic New Testament. They often use small caps on most words, even with "the holy spirit" so the times that "son" or "lord" or such titles are seen, it seems like it's what they normally do with most words, and titles...these would in most versions tend to be capitalized, but "God" and "Messiah" are in caps where I've seen.

I've noticed that Janet Magiera's translation reads often the exact same or very close to the same way as TWI's translation in a number of verses Ive looked it, so it may be that she used this translation as a base text to some degree, and then edited it against the UBS text and going with readings that she felt were best, while keeping the rest as is.

John 1:1-3 TWI ?In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. Everything existed through him, and without him not even one [thing] existed [of that which existed.?
Magiera's reads: ?In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was that Word. 2 This [word] was in the beginning with God. Everything existed through him, and without him not even one [thing] existed [of] that which existed.?
Bauscher's reads: ?In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God. 2 This One himself was at the origin with God. 3 Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.?

John 1:18 TWI ?No man has ever seen God. The only begotten God that one who is in the bosom of his father, has declared (him)?
Magiera?s reads: ??the unique one [of] God, who was in the bosom of his Father, has declared (him).?
Bauscher?s reads as TWI?s translation.

John 3:13 TWI ?And no man has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the son of man, who is in heaven.?
Magiera?s reads: ?And no man has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?And no man has gone up to Heaven except he who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - he who is in Heaven.?

John 8:58 TWI ?Jesus said to them, Verily, verily I say to you, that before Abraham existed, I was.?
Magiera?s reads: ??before Abraham was, I was?
Bauscher?s reads: ??Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD.?

John 10:30 TWI ?I and my father are one.?
Magiera?s reads: ?I and my Father are one.?
Bauscher?s reads ?I and my Father, We are One.?

John 20:28 TWI ?And Thomas answered and said to him, ?My lord and my God.?
Magiera?s reads: ?And Thomas answered and said to him, ?My Lord and my God.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Acts 20:28 TWI ?Watch therefore, over yourselves and over all the flock over which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, that you feed the church of God which he purchased with his blood.?
Magiera reads: ?Watch, therefore, over yourselves and over all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, to feed the church of God which he purchased with his blood.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?Pay attention to yourselves therefore, and to the whole flock in which The Spirit of Holiness has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the Church of God which he has purchased with his blood.?

Romans 9:5 TWI ?and the fathers and whom the Messiah was seen in the flesh He who is God over all, to him [be] our praises and our blessings forever and ever. Amen?
Magiera?s reads: ?and the fathers and from whom Christ was seen in the flesh, He who is God who is over all, to him [be] our praises and blessings forever and ever. Amen.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.

Philippians 2:6-8 TWI ?who as he was in the likeness of God did not consider it extortion to be an equal of God. But he emptied himself, and took on the likeness of a servant, and was in the likeness of men and was found in the fashion as a man. And he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.?
Magiera?s reads: ?who, as he was in the likeness of God, did not consider it extortion to be the equal of God. But he emptied himself, and took on the likeness of a servant and was in the likeness of men and was found in fashion as a man. And he humbled himself and became obedient until death, even the death of the cross.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God, But he stripped himself and took the form of a Servant and was in the form of the children of men, and was found in fashion as a man. And he humbled himself and was obedient unto death, even the death of being crucified.?

Colossians 1:15-20 TWI ?who is the image of the invisible God, and the firstborn of all creatures. (And everything that is in heaven and on earth was created by him, all that is seen and all that is not seen, whether thrones or lordships or principalities or authorities, everything [was] by his hand and was created by him. And he was before all, and everything was established by him.) And he is the head of the body, the church, for he is the head and the firstborn from the dead, that he might be the first in all [things], in him he desired all fullness to dwell and by him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, and by him he made peace by the blood of his cross.?
Magiera?s reads: ?who is the image of the God who is not seen and the firstborn of all created [ones]. And in him everything that is in heaven and on earth was built, all that is seen and all that is not seen, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities, everything [is] by way of him and was built in him. And he is in front of all, and everything stands in him. And he is the head of the body, the church, for he is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead in order that he would be the first in all [things]. For in him, he desired all fullness to live and by way of him to reconcile everything to him. And he made peace by the blood of his cross by his hands, whether in earth or in heaven.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation. By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him. And he is The One who is before all, and all things exist by him. And he is The Head of the body which is the church, for he is The Head and The Firstborn from among the dead, that he would be Preeminent in everything, For in him All Fullness is pleased to dwell, And to reconcile all things by him to Itself, and by him It made peace by the blood of his crucifixion, whether of things that are in Earth or that are in Heaven.?

Colossians 2:9 TWI ?in whom all the fullness and the godhead dwells bodily.?
Magiera?s reads: ?in whom all the fullness of the divinity lives bodily.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?For all The Fullness of The Deity dwells in him bodily.?

Hebrews 1:1-3, 8 TWI ?In many ways and in many forms God previously spoke to our fathers by the prophets. 2 And in these last days he has spoken to us by his son whom he appointed heir of everything and in whom he made the worlds, 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the image of his being and the almighty by the power of his word and in himself he accomplished the cleansing of our sins and sat at the right [hand] of majesty in the high places.? 8 ?But concerning the son he said, Your throne, God, [is] forever; an upright sceptre [is] the sceptre of your kingdom.?
Magiera?s reads: ?In all ways and in all forms, God spoke previously to our fathers by the prophets. 2 And in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of everything and by whom he made the ages, 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the image of his being and almighty by the power of his word. And in his person, he accomplished the cleansing of our sins and sat down at the right hand of majesty in the high places.? 8 ?But concerning the Son he said, YOUR THRONE, GOD, [IS] FOREVER. AN UPRIGHT SCEPTER [IS] THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?From the first, in all parts and in all forms, God spoke with our fathers by The Prophets, 2 And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained The Heir of all things, and by him he made the universe. 3 For he is The Brilliance of his glory, The Image of his Being, and upholds all things by the power of his word; and he in his Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.? 8 ?But concerning The Son, he said, ?Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.?

1 John 5:20 TWI ?And we know that the son of God has come and has given us knowledge that we might know the true [one] and be in him, in the true [one], in his son, Jesus the Messiah. This is the true God and eternal life.?
Magiera?s reads: ?And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us knowledge that we would know the true [one] and be in him, in the true [one], in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.?
Bauscher?s reads: ?And we know that The Son of God has come and he has given us a mind to know The True One and to be in The True One- in his Son, Yeshua The Messiah. This One is The True God and The Life Eternal.?

Q: How do they translate MarYah?
A: ?lord?.

This translation and interlinear, is in very simple modern English and is mostly a literal rendering, but in places they go with a dynamic equivalent translation, with a smoothed over English prose, which is easy reading. It's not at all a "messianic" or a sacred name type version, but renders all proper names and titles into their modern English equivalents. I could be wrong, but I think this will be the case with The Church of the East's future translation as well, which is not a bad thing as long as the text is represented faithfully, as we can always check the Aramaic text out to see what the actual Aramaic spellings and such exist in the ancient text. And other translations that are on their way will show these things in a literal translation of the Eastern text. I hope we will always have Dukhrana.com with us.

Shlama,
Chuck

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#57
ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:How do they translate MarYah? Jahn didn't always translate MarYah correctly (if at all) and sometimes translated "Mar" as "Yah Veh" (which is typical of Sacred Name translations).

Chuck how does Pashka translate MarYa?
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#58
Thirdwoe Wrote:Q: How do they translate MarYah?
A: ?lord?.
Do they place the before it (e.g. - "the lord")?
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#59
Shlama Akhi Chuck,

Thirdwoe Wrote:I've noticed that Janet Magiera's translation reads often the exact same or very close to the same way as TWI's translation in a number of verses Ive looked it, so it may be that she used this translation as a base text to some degree, and then edited it against the UBS text and going with readings that she felt were best, while keeping the rest as is.

Don't quote me on this, but I do remember reading somewhere that Ms. Magiera was on the Way International translation team.

+Shamasha
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#60
Paul Younan Wrote:Don't quote me on this, but I do remember reading somewhere that Ms. Magiera was on the Way International translation team.
Oh yeah, I heard the same thing now that you mention it!

Thanks for all that Chuck! It looks pretty good! I prefer Magiera where she capitalizes things though (i.e. lord/Lord, son of man/Son of Man).
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