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Jarius' Daughter
#1
Hi everyone

I was wondering if someone knows if the voweing in the following picture taken from Matthew 9;18] makes any form of difference when translation?

From Dukra:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=Matthew+9:18&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=150">http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ve ... a&size=150</a><!-- m -->%

from Khaburis: (line 23-24)
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/msviewer.php?ms=1&id=17


KD () DYN () HLYN () MMLL ()
HWA () EMHWN () ATA () ARKWNA () XD (one) QRB (near) SGD () LH ()
WAMR () BRTY (?) H$A (?) MYTT (?)
ALA () TA () SYM () AYDK () ELYH () WTXA ()


can one translate it as "my daughter is dying'" as aposed to "my daughter is dead"?

thank you.
Peace of Messiah be wwith you all.
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#2
Quote:can one translate it as "my daughter is dying'" as aposed to "my daughter is dead"?
Technically not, because it would require it to be pointed (voweled) as an "active participle", which it is not. Instead, it is pointed as "perfect tense".

Never-the-less, I think your overall point might be valid, and the verse could be written in the following fashion, if one assumes the Aramaic "perfect" tense can be either "past" or "present":

"My-daughter, such-now she-dies, but come, put thy-hand upon-her, and she-to-live".
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#3
Please read context: Matthew 9:24. If you want to render it in verse 18 as such, verse 24 must be rendered as 'the maid is not dying'. Thus the latter part of the verse makes no sense: 'and they laughed at him'. To claim that the death occurred between verse 18 and 24 exclusive would be pushing it, as not even a hint at that is made.
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#4
Yes, I had read the context. It might be past tense, but I was most focused on the (hauConfusedhau`) which precedes the "die" verb. Why would the man say, "My-daughter, now she-died, ..." instead of "My-daughter, now she-dies, ..."

The Aramaic perfect tense doesn't seem to have an equivalent in English. The closest I think we can come is archaic English, as in "she-dieth", which the ear can more easily deduce as both past and present, even future as need be.
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#5
Aaron S Wrote:Please read context: Matthew 9:24. If you want to render it in verse 18 as such, verse 24 must be rendered as 'the maid is not dying'. Thus the latter part of the verse makes no sense: 'and they laughed at him'. To claim that the death occurred between verse 18 and 24 exclusive would be pushing it, as not even a hint at that is made.

Amen.

This reminded me of something Y'shu said according to this same witness:

Matthew 11:2-6 (New King James Version)

2. And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 3. and said to Him, ?Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another??
4. Jesus answered and said to them, ?Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5. The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.?
Peace in knowing Y'shu(Yeshu)/Jesus
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#6
Quote:If you want to render it in verse 18 as such, verse 24 must be rendered as 'the maid is not dying'.
Not really. Since the Aramaic "perfect" tense can be past, present, or future, it can be nuanced differently from verse to verse, just as a noun can be nuanced from an "indefinite" to a "definite" article within the same context, as in changing "a lord" to "the lord".

Who knows for sure? The girl may have been at the point of imminent death in verse 18, and dead or presumed dead by the time Yeshua arrived. Or she may have been dead or presumed dead from the beginning. Is not the real message of the verse this:

"Such now 'we die' (perfect tense), but with Yeshua, 'we to live' (imperfect tense)."
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#7
For what its worth, I've noticed that the Aramaic tends to force the "perfect" verb into the "past" tense by using the (D) "of" prefix. This is evidenced in John 8:53:

"To-what thee greater thou-are from our-father Abraham, of-died; and-from the-prophets, of-died-they?"
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#8
Hi everyone,

very interesting replied. thank you.

There is this person trying to argue for the so called 'developements' of the story of Jarius's daughter.

In Mark the story is primitive and in Matthew the story is spiced up, so instead of Jarius asking Jesus to 'heal' the girl, he asks to 'ressurrect' her.

And after seeing some vowel point difference in Dukhra and the Khaburis, i just thaught some-how the vowels may affect translation in Matthew from "she is dead" into "she is dying".

Now, I have herad that Mathew tends to compress his stories. This is what i am convinced of what is happening here, however, I was exploring other possible interesting possibilities based on language/vowel usage.



Jerry, what you said was exciting for me, but Aaron replied back questening the inguistic possibity. Since i have no Aramaic linguistic skills, i am stuck between the two opinions. "to be or not to be".


But i did find a link that opens up the possile view that was expressed by Jerry from the greek;

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jaird.html

Peace of Messiah be with you all.
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#9
Greetings son_of_lite,

My focus primarily is on the Peshitta, so I will not try to comment on the Greek. But in the parallel account of Mark 5:23, the Peshitta reads:

"My-daughter badly rendered, come, put thy-hand upon-her; and-she-to-be-cured, and she-to-live."

So based on Mark's account, there is little doubt that she was considered alive at the beginning. Thus, there is ample reason to believe that the "perfect" verb used by Matthew is best translated as, "My-daughter, such-now she-dies, ..."

It seems unlikely to me that Matthew, vowel pointings, or linguistics are causing the confusion, but instead our perception of the "perfect" verb that is confused. It is not by default a "past tense" verb.
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