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Elymas or Etoimas?
#1
Shlama,

in Acts 13:8 there's a variant in the Greek spelling of this fella's name:

elumav = Elymas

etoimav = Etoimas

the Peshitta has the rendering of:

[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Smwl0[/font] = Aluwmas

but if misread as:

[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Smw=0[/font] = Atuwmas

how easy would it be to see a [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]l[/font] and accidentally read a [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]=[/font] ?

whadda y'all think? a good explanation for the Greek variant spelling? otherwise, the lamda and tau in Greek don't look as similar as the Aramaic's two possible letters - but if there were smears or blemishes under the lamadh, it might have caught the attention of the Greek scribe and caused him to render it as a tet.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#2
Shlama Jeremy

It could be easy to make this mistake if the text is a little smeared, also when the lines are close together one on top of the other sometimes the letters below can extend too high and cause confusion.

Also have you looked at the texts in DSS font? There is less distinction between Lamed and Tet there, but its still possible if you consider human hand writing etc.

Sami
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#3
Sami Rabia Wrote:Shlama Jeremy

It could be easy to make this mistake if the text is a little smeared, also when the lines are close together one on top of the other sometimes the letters below can extend too high and cause confusion.

Also have you looked at the texts in DSS font? There is more distinction between Lamed and Tet there, but its still possible if you consider human hand writing etc.

Sami


Shlama akhi,

i think the Estrangela script does provide the easiest route to understanding for this one, but there are others where the DSS script also makes more sense.

this is evidence that the original Aramaic texts were written in both scripts, and some translators went from the DSS manuscripts, and some from the Estrangela manuscripts, and this would had to have happened very early on, for the variants arose quickly in the Greek translations after this point. i just went through Romans and found quite a few instances where such variants can be explained this way. when i have more time i'll post some of them on here for further consideration.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#4
Burning one Wrote:
Sami Rabia Wrote:Shlama Jeremy

It could be easy to make this mistake if the text is a little smeared, also when the lines are close together one on top of the other sometimes the letters below can extend too high and cause confusion.

Also have you looked at the texts in DSS font? There is more distinction between Lamed and Tet there, but its still possible if you consider human hand writing etc.

Sami


Shlama akhi,

i think the Estrangela script does provide the easiest route to understanding for this one, but there are others where the DSS script also makes more sense.

this is evidence that the original Aramaic texts were written in both scripts, and some translators went from the DSS manuscripts, and some from the Estrangela manuscripts, and this would had to have happened very early on, for the variants arose quickly in the Greek translations after this point. i just went through Romans and found quite a few instances where such variants can be explained this way. when i have more time i'll post some of them on here for further consideration.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

We should compile all the Greek variants that can clearly be accounted for by similar letters in the Aramaic. This is done in the Hebrew Tanakh as you know, when two Samaritan or Paleo Hebrew letters look very similar and can be confused and swapping the around makes more sense than the Masoretic reading.

There are also examples of this happening within the Aramaic texts, the Peshitta and the Peshitto differ in some areas precisely over a Lamed or Nun and such letters as look very similar in Estrangelo.

I think we will find that some variants will be better seen in Estrangelo and others in DSS script.

What do you think:

DSS > Estrangelo > Greek
\ Greek

That Estrangelo was made very early and the Greek made from both DSS and Estrangelo in different places?

If so if it could be shown that a particular book in one family Greek texts for example, displays particularly variants that can be accounted for by Estrangelo and another Greek family displays particularly variants that can be explained by DSS than we would have a pattern, and that would be interesting.

If one Greek book for example Matthew, or especially an Epistle like Romans, shows consistently DSS variants or all Estrangelo variants this would conclusive.

This has probably been thought of before, do you know if it has lead anywhere?

Sami
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#5
Shlama,


what you propose would be a fantastic tool to have, and who knows what the results would show? to my knowledge such a great undertaking has not ever been done. but it would be a wonderful thing to see a reality.

as for the scenario you've presented:

Quote:What do you think:

DSS > Estrangelo > Greek
\ Greek

That Estrangelo was made very early and the Greek made from both DSS and Estrangelo in different places?

-- i think it may indeed have occurred that way.

initiating such an undertaking as you propose may be the only way to really nail down such a theory.

i'm currently going over the Peshitta and the Greek texts with a fine-toothed comb, to the best of my personal ability, and noting each and every variant and different reading between the texts that i possibly can which appear significant enough to possibly have an answer as a copyist/translator mistake, but i hadn't thought to catalogue them the way you've suggested.

but in my opinion, that is a great idea - just a big undertaking! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#6
Shlama Jeremy.

I am sure you know Dukhrana, the Peshitta tool gives you the Aramaic text, Eastern and Western, 5 different Greek versions along with the Latin Vulgate and English translations of the Peshitto. It is not perfectly set up for the task yet, because the texts are critical editions anyway. But let me see what I can find online.

It would be a great undertaking, but it would be a great thing to do and we have some of the tools we need to do it. If I werent pre-occupied with something else I would do it myself, but I feel that if we ever want to get to the bottom of the issue we will need all of our evidences gathered together and discussed systematically and comprehensively.

My goal would be to show that there is no reasonable case against Peshitta Primacy, but that the case for it is strong enough to vindicate those who believe it as being reasonable and respectable.

Sami
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#7
Sami Rabia Wrote:Shlama Jeremy.

I am sure you know Dukhrana, the Peshitta tool gives you the Aramaic text, Eastern and Western, 5 different Greek versions along with the Latin Vulgate and English translations of the Peshitto. It is not perfectly set up for the task yet, because the texts are critical editions anyway. But let me see what I can find online.

It would be a great undertaking, but it would be a great thing to do and we have some of the tools we need to do it. If I werent pre-occupied with something else I would do it myself, but I feel that if we ever want to get to the bottom of the issue we will need all of our evidences gathered together and discussed systematically and comprehensively.

My goal would be to show that there is no reasonable case against Peshitta Primacy, but that the case for it is strong enough to vindicate those who believe it as being reasonable and respectable.

Sami

Shlama akhi,


yes, Dukhrana is a blessed tool indeed!! i spend much of my time there cross-referencing and double-checking and having too much fun altogether! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

my time and energy are greatly focused on other things at the moment, as well, but it would be helpful for all who are interested to put our heads together and see what we could come up with.

and as for being reasonable and respectable -- do we have to be???? <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->

seriously, tho, every bit would indeed help. i had recently spent some concerted effort trying to get through to a poster over at Bible Scholars Forums who is absolutely convinced he had all the necessary evidence to put out the Peshitta Primacy fires i had going there. if you're interested, his accusations against it - and my refutations - can be found at the following thread:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://biblescholarsforums.com/viewforum.php?f=20&start=0">http://biblescholarsforums.com/viewforu ... 20&start=0</a><!-- m -->

his posts are authored by "Greek Student" - and he has others on the bigger forum itself where i also attempted refutations. he's been quiet for awhile, tho....but that is the most effort i've seen so far to try to disprove the veracity of the Peshitta Primacy arguments. so far none of his arguments seemed to hold any water, at least from my perspective. the majority of his accusations fell in the realm of Greek loan-words in the Peshitta, which is not a textually viable point of argument, if we're honest.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#8
Sami, Jeremy, I would like to resurrect this nice to have "great tool" idea.
Do you know if anyone has compiled a good resource with the Greek variants / Peshitta sources ? I mean a good extensive (exhaustive?) list of MSS or families of those, in electronic form , which can be analyzed properly. What is the status today ? I also have some ideas ... anyone else can see a need and would like to join and spec out what is really required ?
Jerzy
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#9
enarxe Wrote:Sami, Jeremy, I would like to resurrect this nice to have "great tool" idea.
Do you know if anyone has compiled a good resource with the Greek variants / Peshitta sources ? I mean a good extensive (exhaustive?) list of MSS or families of those, in electronic form , which can be analyzed properly. What is the status today ? I also have some ideas ... anyone else can see a need and would like to join and spec out what is really required ?
Jerzy


Shlama akhi Jerzy,


i don't know of one that exists showing all the variants between the Aramaic and the Greek. it would be great if one did exist already!!

however, i've been painstakingly at work for several years now translating the Eastern Peshitta at my own leisure, and noting every single place where a meaningful variant exists between the Peshitta and as many Greek texts as i can research, as well as word-plays, mistranslations, Semitic poetry, etcetera. i am going for as exhaustive a goal as possible, but i am not done. in the 22-book Eastern NT canon, i have done every book except the Gospels. i am in the midst of them at the moment, but still have quite a good ways to go just in translating the Gospels, let alone checking all variants i can find in them. when i began the Gospels, i did make an electronic list of as many variants as i could find in the Greek alone - my file is around 500 pages right now. it will thankfully dwindle upon a more intensive study, though, since not every variant in the Greek has an Aramaic explanation; some are spelling variances and simple scribal errors that exist outside the scope of the Peshitta. but even still, 500 pages is a LOT of work just to sift through, when i am done with the translation. none of the other books of the NT had anywhere near that much - Acts had many, but still nowhere in that ballpark.

i would like to hear what ideas you have concerning this subject. i've been favored to have wonderful help in proof-reading my translations from a few on this site as they can do so to catch my own errors, whether in omission or in translation, so that is a very big and much-welcomed aide, but when it comes to searching through the myriad of Greek variants, that is something i've tackled alone for each book. it can get eye-crossingly maddening after awhile, going from Greek to Aramaic, then looking at the possibilities of Greek uncial letter similarities, as well as the differences in Estrangela and DSS scripts. but i totally believe the Word is worth the time and the effort to go over like that, and look forward to hopefully presenting it as a finished gift to the Body of Messiah one day to aide in the edification of His people.



Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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