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sabachthani? - Printable Version

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sabachthani? - Yochanan - 02-21-2004

Shlomo beMaran

In Gen. 22 we have recorded the incident when the ram was caught in the thicket as a substitution for Isaac, the promised seed of Abraham. The Hebrew word for thicket or bush used here is sevach (samech, vet, khaph). In it's verb form this word becomes sabach (to entangle). So then the words of Jesus from the cross couls read 'My God, My God, why have you entangled me? Like the ram in the thicket! Also, why do you think that Jesus wore a crown of thorns...I say He was caught in a thicket and the thorny crown was the symbolism.


Yochanan

I don't know if the verb sabach translates into the Aramaic. But check out any old Hebrew dictionary to see what it means in Hebrew. A sovech (same letters) is an entanglement!


Re: - Larry Kelsey - 02-21-2004

Shlama Akhi Yochanan,

This is a very nice analogy with the crown of thorns relating to the thicket where the entangled ram was found. However, the Aramaic root is sheen-beith-qop as opposed to semkath-beith-kap.
I love the ramifications, though. Pun intended! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Yeshua was very much like an 'entangled ram' due to many things including the politico-religious climate and the sorrows and griefs he experienced are typified very well with thorns which answers to troubles, trials and difficulties in Semitic thought from what I understand.

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey


Re: - Yochanan - 02-25-2004

Larry Kelsey Wrote:Shlama Akhi Yochanan,

This is a very nice analogy with the crown of thorns relating to the thicket where the entangled ram was found. However, the Aramaic root is sheen-beith-qop as opposed to semkath-beith-kap.
I love the ramifications, though. Pun intended! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Yeshua was very much like an 'entangled ram' due to many things including the politico-religious climate and the sorrows and griefs he experienced are typified very well with thorns which answers to troubles, trials and difficulties in Semitic thought from what I understand.

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey


Shlama akhi Larry,

This could go possibly into a thread on double-meanings. The audible word sabachthani could really go both ways. Shevak, (the word which the Peshitta records ) which is Aramaic for "forsake", covers the original meaning of the Hebrew word "azavthani". However, we could add the double-entendre "sabach" (entangled) to complete the thought and add more depth...2 mysteries tied into the one statement.

How you answered illustrates what I believe really happened. Jesus delivered a pun from the cross ... a statement with a double meaning...just as you have done in response to my post. Did you also intend to illustratrate this along with the pun itself? Hmmm! We are called to be as wise as serpents, n'est-ce pas?

Yochanan


Re: - The Thadman - 02-27-2004

Yochanan Wrote:This could go possibly into a thread on double-meanings. The audible word sabachthani could really go both ways. Shevak, (the word which the Peshitta records ) which is Aramaic for "forsake", covers the original meaning of the Hebrew word "azavthani". However, we could add the double-entendre "sabach" (entangled) to complete the thought and add more depth...2 mysteries tied into the one statement.

"Forsake" for "shvaq" however is a minority reading. It mainly serves as the verb "to allow" and can also be used idiomatically as "to forgive," as it is used in the Lord's Prayer.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o


- gbausc - 02-28-2004

Gentlemen,

Jesus did not offer any puns from the cross; I can't understand such flippancy from men who profess faith , reverence and love for
the Son of God, or even from someone who may not, but believes Jesus suffered an exruciating death.
Puns from the cross ? You guys have been reading too much and familiarity breeds contempt. Please go see "The Passion of the Christ", if you haven't already. It conveys something that words alone never could.

As far as our Lord's cry from the cross, Shabaq occurs 224 times in the Peshitta NT. 78 (34%)of those are translated via the Greek as "leave,forsake"; 55 (24%)are "let,allow"; 83 (37%) are "forgive,remit".
I can find one place in the NT where the word can mean "spare"(Romans 11:4). That is 0.5 % of NT occurrences.
I don't believe, however that mere statistics can decide this matter.
The Greek readings unanimously support the root "kataleipo" , which means "leave,forsake".
The Hebrew "ezeb" in Psalms 22:1 means, "forsake,leave, forgive".
The LXX has the same Greek word as The Greek NT. The Peshitta OT has the same reading as The Peshitta NT has in Mat. 27 and Mark 14.
It would seem that the objection to "forsaken" is primarily theological, not linguistic or grammatical. I have a problem trusting someone's translation when personal theology is a determining factor in determining a word's meaning, especially when the result is less than one percent of total word usage.

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Dave B