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Second Coming already happened (A.D. 70)? - Printable Version

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Second Coming already happened (A.D. 70)? - Craig - 02-07-2004

Mattia (Matthew) 24:

29 "And , immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon not will shine its light and the stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the Heavens will be shaken. 30And then will be seen the sign of Bareh d'Enasha in Heaven, and then will mourn all the tribes of the earth and will see Bareh d'Enasha who comes upon the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. "


Tacitus - Roman historian:
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Histories, v. 13).

Eusebius Pamphili (circa A.D. 260-341), Bishop of Caesarea quoting Josphesus :
"A few days after the Feast, on the 21st of Artemisius, a supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I have to relate would have been dismissed as an invention had it not been vouched for by eyewitnesses and followed by disasters that bore out the signs. Befoe sunset there were seen in the sky over the whole country chariots and regiments in arms speeding through the clouds and encircling the towns." (<i>Eusebius: The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine</i></a>, translated by G.A. Williamson (Penguin Classics, 1965; revised by Andrew Louth, 1989) Book 3, Ch. 8 ).

Shlama, Craig


. - drmlanc - 02-07-2004

The odd thing is that they all happened recenty <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> Remember the solar eclipse, the red moon (caused by dust) and teh "falling stars" best seen in Japan. That was cool. So I guess you can never say okay this is the time hey?


Re: . - Craig - 02-07-2004

drmlanc Wrote:The odd thing is that they all happened recenty <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> Remember the solar eclipse, the red moon (caused by dust) and teh "falling stars" best seen in Japan. That was cool. So I guess you can never say okay this is the time hey?

People have been claiming that Revelation was being fulfilled in their own lives for 1850 years, but if Revelation is genuinely prophetic (the author who is not John of the Twelve and doesn't claim to be, nor a Apostle in general, only a prophet) then it is backwards vision of the spiritual dimension of A.D. 70 and the destruction of the Temple. If that is the case it would mean the "Old Covenant" completely faded away then as Hebrews 8:13 said it was ready to.

Shlama, Craig


Re: - Larry Kelsey - 02-08-2004

Shlama Akhi Craig,

This is a very fascinating report (from both a Roman historian and a Jewish historian <!-- s:bomb: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bomb.gif" alt=":bomb:" title="The Bomb" /><!-- s:bomb: --> <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: --> )...but
wouldn't the 'tribulation' mentioned in this verse you posted about (Mt. 24:29) be the same tribulation referred to as 'great tribulation' just 8 verses prior in 24:21? " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."-(KJV). For 'tribulation' in vs. 21, Lamsa (and Paul Younan <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->) have 'suffering' and Murdock has 'distress'. For verse 21 to be accurate prophecy from Yeshua, that would mean a greater tribulation / distress / suffering than even the combined German / Russian pogroms, wouldn't it? Let's look at those last words of verse 21 again..."...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I'm certainly not trying to see how much evil I can muster for Israel's future, but doesn't verse 21 (straight from the lips of Yeshua no less) have profound implications here?

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey


Re: - Craig - 02-09-2004

Clement of Alexandria (died circa A.D. 215):

""The Temple was rebuilt in seven weeks: then, after an interval of sixty-two weeks, the Messiah came. then, after an interval of half a week, Nero placed an abomination in the Temple of Jerusalem: and, after another half-week, the Temple was destroyed by Vespasian.

"<b>And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks.</b> And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said." [The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book 1. ed. A.Roberts and J. Donaldson, 4.0 ed., The Ante-Nicean Fathers, Vol. 1, vol. 1), p. 307.]

On Matthew 24:15:

"We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."

"These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

On Matthew 24:3. 34:

"But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therfore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)


Re: - Craig - 02-09-2004

I had a lot more regarding parallels between Revelation and Josephus but instead of making a new reply with the Clement of Alexandria material, I accidentally edited the old post, so here is a part of it that I can bear to type out again.

Larry Kelsey Wrote:For verse 21 to be accurate prophecy from Yeshua, that would mean a greater tribulation / distress / suffering than even the combined German / Russian pogroms, wouldn't it?

Maran Eshoo said the Gospel would be preached to the entire "world" and then the end would come. The "world" doesn't necessarily mean the entire globe, but the world surrounding Israel (Acts 11:28 ). And, Paul said that the Gospel had already been preached throughout the world (Romans 1:8, Col. 1:6, etc).

Larry Kelsey Wrote:Let's look at those last words of verse 21 again..."...such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I'm certainly not trying to see how much evil I can muster for Israel's future, but doesn't verse 21 (straight from the lips of Yeshua no less) have profound implications here?


"<b>Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of (1); both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations</b>; while some men who were not concerned in the affair themselves, have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by heresay , and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those things that were then present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humour of flattery to the Romans, or of a hatred to the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes ecomiums, but nowhere the accurate truth of the facts, I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our own country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; I, Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work.] (Josephus, The Wars of The Jews, Preface)

Shlama, Craig


Re: - Craig - 02-10-2004

Rabbinical Jewish complaint that I think only Preterism (Second Coming A.D 70) can really answer:

===============================================

Deuteronomy 18:20 - 22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the
name of other elokims, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which
HA SHEM hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of HA SHEM, if the thing
follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which HA SHEM hath
not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt
not be afraid of him

According to the so-called "New Testament." Yeshua first tells his
disciples that he would come [ercomai erchomai] before they took
their message to all the cities of Israel.

Matthew 10:16 ??? 23

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for
verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of
Israel, till the Son of man be come [ercomai erchomai].

Some 2,000 years have passed and the gospel message had not only been
preached through out Israel but almost all cities of the world have
heard it. Yeshua did not return during the time that he promised.

Some six chapters latter Yeshua explains, "For the Son of man shall
come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall
reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There
be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see
the Son of man coming [ercomai erchomai] in his kingdom." (Matthew
16:27 ??? 28 ). The account in Mark echoes the statement in Matthew.

Mark 8:38 ??? 40:1

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in
this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of
man be ashamed, when he cometh [ercomai erchomai] in the glory of his
Father with the holy angels.
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some
of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they
have seen the kingdom of Elokim come [ercomai erchomai] with power.

According to Yeshua some in his immediate audience would not die
before they themselves saw him coming [ercomai erchomai] "in the
glory of his Father" with angels to establish his kingdom with
power. Some 2,000 years have passed and the immediate audience
Yeshua spoke to is long dead and buried. Yeshua did NOT come [ercomai
erchomai] and establish the kingdom during the lifetime of any of his
1st century disciples that heard his promise. Yeshua did NOT defeat
the enemies of Israel. Nor did he establish the kingdom on earth as
promised by HA SHEM in the Tanakh.

It is against this backdrop of Yeshua coming [ercomai erchomai] into
his kingdom with angels to judge humanity in the lifetime of the 1st
century disciples -- that Yeshua's disciples ask him for more details
concerning his coming. In the 24th chapter of Matthew, Yeshua
explains all the events surrounding his coming [ercomai erchomai] in
his kingdom. Note that Yeshua repeatedly speaks to his immediate
audience, the 1st century disciples, and refers to them as "you."
There is no change in audience from the 1st century disciples (who
asked the question) to some future audience. He has already told his
1st century disciples that he would come before some of them died.
The audience remains the same through out his discourse ??? the 1st
century disciples.

Matthew 24:3 - 34

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto
him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what
shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And
Yeshua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and
shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and
kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of
sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall
kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another,
and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise,
and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the
love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the
end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom
shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the
abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understandSmile 16 Then let
them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is
on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his
clothes.19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that
give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in
the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this
time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be
shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto
you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there
shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great
signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go
not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
the west; so shall also the coming [ercomai erchomai] of the Son of
man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be
gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those
days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the
Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [ercomai erchomai] in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall
send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his
branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer
is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This
generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Some 2,000 years have passed and all in Yeshua's immediate audience,
the 1st century disciples, have long since died. Yeshua did not come
[ercomai erchomai] in the "glory of his Father with holy angels" and
establish the kingdom nor judge humanity in the lifetime of the 1st
century disciples as promised. The generation to which Yeshua spoke,
the 1st century disciples, is long dead and buried for some 2,000
years. The things Yeshua foretold were not fulfilled before that
generation died.

Christians to this very day claim his return is imminent and that we
all better believe in him to escape judgment and hellfire. HA SHEM
teaches differently. We are to reject as a false prophet anyone who
makes a prophecy that does not come to pass in the time specified. HA
SHEM instructs us to reject the false prophet regardless of the signs
and wonders (i.e. miracles) that the prophet performs. HA SHEM
states that it is a test to prove "you, to know whether ye love HA
SHEM your Elokim with all your heart and with all your soul"
(Deuteronomy 13:3).

Yeshua failed to meet HA SHEM's test for a true prophet.

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