Peshitta Forum

+- Peshitta Forum (
+-- Forum: New Testament (
+--- Forum: General (
+--- Thread: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION (/showthread.php?tid=3349)

Pages: 1 2 3 4

INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-23-2014

Greetings! I am new here and want to say "Hello." I have studied the Aramaic for many years mostly studying the works of George Lamsa and Rocco Errico. I have of late begun to study various works of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Church of the East as well as other Peshitta translations. I have a question: What is this forum's view of the works of Janet Magiera? What is her background? I hadn't heard about her until last year.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-23-2014

She has had some past involvement with The Way International, which was back then lead by Mr. Victor Paul Wierwille, who worked with George Lamsa. Janet told me that it was mainly because she had seen that the Lamsa translation was not that accurate, that she decided to make her own, and to show an interlinear text to let the people see what it said exactly.

But, her translation is not strictly from The Peshitta proper (The Eastern Text), which is found in the Eastern Aramaic manuscripts. She uses as her base text, the translation given by The Way International, in their interlinear, published in the early 1980's. They used a mix of Eastern and Western manuscripts, so her translation is too, where her translation has a mix of Eastern and Western readings.

Her translation, while for the most part very good, and accurate of its text, is what could be called The Peshitto version in English translation, with some Eastern text readings. The Same as Mr. David Bauscher, though his translation is all the Western Peshitto version, with no Eastern readings, which was taken from his source text, the UBS printed edition.


Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-23-2014

Thank you. Since I own the three volume Way International Aramaic-Interlinear set, I probably don't need the Magiera interlinear set, do I? I am guessing it's pretty similar. How did she know Lamsa wasn't that accuate? As for Bauscher, I am not sure about him or Neil Douglas Klotz for that matter. From everything I have read and studied, it "appears" Younan is the most accurate, correct? The COE hasn't discredited Lamsa as far as I know. Thanks again for your prompt reply. Good to meet you.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-24-2014

Shamasha (Deacon) Paul Younan's interlinear is very close to the text he uses there, it being a word for word rendering. Although, he has used the UBS text as his source, he has given the Eastern readings where there is a major difference in the texts...and this is rare, but a few are important.

If you can afford her interlinear volumes, I would get them, as well as her other helps which are geared for them, as they are much more detailed than the The Way's edition....which she also had worked on. You will find that they are very much the same, but she has given her own choices in her's, so they are not word for word in every place, though I have found the content to be very much the same.

She told me personally, after studying Lamsa's version carefully over the years, and becoming more informed about the actual wording of the Aramaic NT, she realized that it could be done much more accurately. I can confirm that she was right, and so far as I have seen, her version is indeed much closer to the actual wording and content of The Aramaic NT.

Lamsa's version isn't always literal, but often he gives his interpretation, and sometime the translation will follow that of the KJV, rather than what The Peshitta text has. He also has a mix of the Western Peshitto readings, with the Eastern Peshitta NT text, so it isn't strictly an Eastern Aramaic Text, as is claimed on the cover. His also, like Magiera's has the Western Five, books, which were never part of The Peshitta NT.

The world has yet to see a printed edition of a real Peshitta NT, in English translation, rendered from the actual Peshitta (Eastern) manuscripts themselves. But in a few years, this will not be the case, as there are a few versions in the works, and hopefully an Official Church of the East edition, which we have heard is planned... The Peshitto (Western) manuscripts were compromised, in various places, and have added the 5 books to the Aramaic NT text, which were never part of the Original Aramaic form of the NT.

Mr. Bauscher's version is very close to the text he used (the UBS printed Peshitto version), as he started out with it being an interlinear, then edited that work into a flowing translation. It's not the Peshitta though, but the later Western version of it's text, with the added 5 books translated from the Greek version.


Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-26-2014

Thank you for all your help. A CoE translation would be wonderful to have. Any idea when it might be available? Is Pashka's work a good work?

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-26-2014

Mum seems to be the word on all things Official COE translation for the time being, and Pashka's translation of the Gospels is a good one, though again, it is the later Peshitto text that is used, though I have noticed he went with some Peshitta readings. So, it's a hybrid text/translation.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-26-2014

Thank you again. I am partial to Lamsa and his works since I began my study of Aramaic and the Semitic background of the New Testament through his works but have always been open to other sources and your information has been very helpful. I always thought since Lamsa was an Assyrian who grew up in those lands and spoke the language he was the most accurate.

I don't want to keep asking you questions and I won't but I do have one more if you don't mind. What is Magiera's background?

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-26-2014

Your welcome.... I love questions, and if I don't know them someone else here might, and then we both get to learn what we didn't know before. So, feel free to ask them.

You can check the accuracy of any translation, if you don't know the language, by looking up the passage at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- m --> and checking his translation against the interlinear there...if you click the KJV option as well as Lamsa's version, you can see where it sometimes will match it, rather than what is actually found in the Aramaic of the Peshitta. He does not always stick with the Eastern Peshitta text, either, and has some Western Peshitto readings here and there.

If you mean by "background", her church affiliation and or spiritual beliefs, she is some sort of Pentecostal Protestant I think, I could be wrong about that, but that is the impression I got after speaking with her a few times.

If you want to know exactly what the Eastern Peshitta, and the Western Peshitto has in it's Aramaic text, then there is no better place than at If you need help navigating their website, let me know, as I'm always using it to study things out.


Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-26-2014

Thanks again. I am familiar with that site and have used it a few times. I understand Magiera is an ordained minister. I was just wondering about her cultural background and what qualified her to challenge Lamsa's work if she doesn't have a Semitic background like Lamsa did. I think my next step is to purchase Paul Younan's translation.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-26-2014

What I have heard, is that she studied under George Lamsa in her early years, and learned the Aramaic language, and then helped get The Way International's version done in the early 80's.

Once you study the language out, you will find that Lamsa did a fair amount of his own personal interpreting of the text, rather than just translating the text as it is. He has a few particular beliefs, which are his own, that can be seen in his version.

Also, as Shamasha Paul has said here on the forum, his Interlinear work, isn't to be mistaken for a translation proper, but rather only a rendering of each of the words into their English equivalents, strictly an Interlinear work.

Andrew Roth, has used his Interlinear work for his version, taken from the Interlinear from Matthew thru Acts 15, and edited it here and there, as he thought best.


Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-26-2014

I know. Even in the mid '80's when I began my studies I questioned some of Lamsa's commentaries on NT verses. From everything I have read, studied, been informed of, etc., it appears Younan might be the best to date. I may eventually get Roth's work but wonder why he used Hebrew script instead of Syriac.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2014

Shamasha Paul's will be the most literal and straight forward rendering of each word, for sure, and will be the closest to the Eastern content of the Peshitta's text for the Gospels up to Acts chapter 16.

Roth's 1st edition had the Estrangela script, and I have that one here, and wont get a new edition, until he fixes all the problems in the text, and publishes his notes separate...and it happens to be that it is the UBS text there on the right side, so a number of times, it will not match up with what is found in his edited English version of Younan's Interlinear, and Murdock's translation. For instance, Murdock didn't use the UBS text, as that particular critical text of Western manuscripts wasn't produced at the time Murdock translated his version in the mid 1800s.

Mr. Roth is a Netzari believer last time I knew, which are somewhat along the lines of the Messianic groups out there in their particular beliefs and practices, so, he will interpret things along those lines, in some of his edited renderings of the text, and in (brackets) and in his lengthy comments and notes, and while the text he has in his later editions may be the same as the 1st edition, as to content, it is given in the Ashuri (Hebrew) script...same words, different script.

It makes it appear more "Hebraic" and is easier to read for those who are more familiar with that script, than with the Estrangela. Because of his notes and the overall presentation of his version, I have called it "The Hebrashitta." His will be the closest to the actual Peshitta text, as found in the Eastern Manuscripts, in a physical publication available today.

I have given some analysis on most of the versions available today, where they might fall on the Eastern or Western text side in their readings. You can check it out here on this thread. It's not yet complete, as I have not gone over all the Gospels as yet.

Here's the link: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3224#p19958</a><!-- l -->


Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2014

Also, you had mentioned Neil Douglas Klotz above, and I hadn't heard of him before. Looks like he is into Sufism. I'm not sure if he has any Peshitta translations.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - Rev. James Clifton - 08-27-2014

He hasn't done any translations. He just writes a few books every now and then trying to link the Aramaic with New Age philosophy.

Re: INTRODUCTION AND QUESTION - ScorpioSniper2 - 08-28-2014

It's a fashionable thing among "Christian" New-Agers to try to find pantheism and such things using Aramaic as a gimmic.