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Born Again or Born From Above? - Printable Version

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Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - ScorpioSniper2 - 06-06-2013

I have no problem with getting as poetic as possible as long as it doesn't cost accuracy! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - gregglaser - 06-09-2013

It is a wonderful blessing that the Peshitta was given with multilayered connections and poetry ? translations in English will always be inaccurate in more ways than we understand. However, the gospel does help us understand that ?he who is faithful in little will be faithful in much?. See e.g., Matthew 25:23. So because you are seeking to be faithful with both accuracy and literalism in your translation of ?ris?, I would recommend an English translation that is faithful in little - making just one solid connection, the best and most solid literal connection in the context of the Chapter that is still poetic just as the Peshitta is poetic. So yes, I think the ?the beginning? is the best translation of ?ris? here. I?ve been thinking very positively about this post these last couple days, and here are some additional thoughts from my word study?

Yahshua explains in John 3:7-8,
Quote:?Do not marvel that I say to you that it is necessary for you to be born from ris. The wind will blow where it wants and you hear its sound, but you do not know from where it comes and to where it goes. So is everyone who is born from the spirit (ruKha).?
Yahshua is specifically connecting ris with ruKha (spirit). So a nice translation will literally and poetically capture that connection?. The first thing we know about the heavenly spirit is that it is not born from this world. Rather, this world was born from spirit. Spirit is from the beginning, per Genesis 1:1-2
Quote:?In the beginning Alhym created the heavens and the earth. And the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and ruKh of Alhym moving gently on the face of mym. Then said Alhym, let there be light, and there was light. And Alhym saw the light, that it was good, and Alhym separated between the light and the darkness. And Alhym called the light, Day. And the darkness called night. And Alhym said Let an expanse be in the midst of mym, and let it divide mym l mym. And Alhym made the expanse, and separated between mym which were under the expanse and mym which were above the expanse. And it was so. And Alhym called the expanse Heavens. And there was evening, and there was morning, the second day. And Alhym said, Let the waters under the heavens be collected to one place, and let the dry land appear. And it was so. And Alhym called the dry land, Earth. And the collection of waters called ymym.
Notice how I?ve scribed the passage above to require reading the Hebrew words for ?water? and ?spirit? in Genesis 1. As students we should do this because in John 3:5, Yahshua says, ?Truly, truly say I to you, if a man not is born from mya and ruKha he is not able to enter the kingdom of Alha.?

Note the spelling in Genesis 1:10 (cited above in the last sentence), the ?waters on the earth? (ymym) are now called by a different name than the ?waters in heaven? (mym). As we know from our Aramaic word ?yma?, earthly waters are still called seas with a yod at the beginning. By contrast, ?mya? can mean earthly waters or heavenly. And indeed, note the word Yahshua uses in John 3:5, mya, not yma, and we know from the context that Yahshua is speaking of heavenly spirit and heavenly waters in John 3:5.

So with that word context, we see yet another connection between ancient Hebrew and Aramaic that helps us understand the gospel. And it is very exciting in John 8:23 when Yahshua advises that he is not from this world. Once we know that we can?t expect to receive the heavenly spirit from this world, we are blessed to have an answer for where to look ? Genesis 1 - we must look to the beginning of space and time that birthed this world. If you are simply born again from your mother in this world as Niqademus was suggesting, then you would accomplish only more flesh. And as Yahshua said in John 3:6, ?What is born from flesh is flesh?.

So the key to translating ?born from ris' is that ris is not of this world. For better or worse, the English words ?ruler?, ?head?, and ?start? generally tend to be associated with this world.

By contrast, ?the beginning? is a phrase in English that can inherently suggest a deeper connection to our Creator for any English speaker. It is a literal translation of ris and it is a poetic translation of ris in the context of John 3. Lastly, it should be consistent with your translation of John 1:1, as you have already most likely begun your translation work with ?In the beginning?.

Personally, I?m also interested to know if Nicodemus ultimately understood Yahshua?s lesson connected to the first word of the torah? Was Nyqdmus (n = will; yqd = burn; mus = tribute) condemned to earth and fire, or did he ultimately accept Yahshua?s invitation to water and spirit? So much we don?t know, but so exciting to see what we can discover while the lights are on...

John 3:16-21, ?For Alha so loved this world (Ealma), even that he would give his unique son, that whoever will trust in him will not be destroyed, but will have life to a world/age (Ealm). For Alha did not send his son into this world/age (Ealma) to condemn this world/age (Ealma), but to give life to this world/age (Ealma) in his hand. He who trusts in him is not judged and he who does not trust is judged already, because he does not believe in the name of the unique son of Alha. Now this is the judgment, because the light has come to the world and men loved darkness more than the light, for their works are evil. For everyone who works hate, hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works will not be reproved. But he who works truth comes to the light so that may be known his works that in Alha they are worked.?

Remember from Genesis 1:2-3, the first thing that the spirit of Alhym accomplished after moving gently on the face of the waters, ?Let there be light, and there was light. And Alhym saw the light was good.?

To understand ?ris? or ?nuhra? in John 3 we ultimately realize that we are searching for a way to understand spacetime mechanics. And perhaps the test for us mortal men is to look deep beyond the face of the waters, the face of our judgments, the face of ourselves. We are confined to these languages bEalma but they can be excellent tools for our needs and skills. Just imagine though if a man did adequately appreciate ?ris?, and was given the opportunity to examine another face beyond his contemplation, of lightning mixed with water but the two forces do not extinguish one another and only exponentially compliment one another. Again, the things we don?t know...

Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - ScorpioSniper2 - 06-10-2013

Thanks for the fascinating post. I chose to use "Born from the beginning".

Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - distazo - 06-10-2013

Try to avoid special words, just because you 'can be different'. Born from the beginning is not very clear to an average Christian reader.
Another example, some have chosen to write holy spirit as 'set apart spirit' or even 'breath' instead of 'spirit'. This does not enlight the reader <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - ScorpioSniper2 - 06-10-2013

For "Rukha d'Qudsha", In the Anglicized Version I used "the Spirit of Holiness". I use explanatory footnotes at the end of chapters.

Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - Thirdwoe - 06-11-2013

I believe God used "special words" when he inspired His men to write His words down. If The Messiah had said "born again", or "born from above" in the Aramaic language, are there not more usual words for "again" and "above", which He could have used there? There are reasons certain words were chosen...


Re: Born Again or Born From Above? - ScorpioSniper2 - 06-11-2013

God is a pretty precise guy <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->