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Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - Mike Kar - 04-19-2013

Chuck, no one knows who wrote Hebrews. From the time of the early church period and the ante Nicene era the issue of the authorship of Hebrews is unresolved . We also do not know to where the exact location of this epistle was sent so either side can not claim a head start (so to speak ) ; and maybe, as a side thing, we should not be taking sides on this issue. We should at least try to be on the same team here. This can and should be a team effort when it comes this Biblical issue.

I am somewhat familiar with Clement's quote, and, to my knowledge he did arrive at the conclusion that the letter of Hebrews that was extant for that time(back then ) was the Greek Hebrews and admitted that the Greek flavor and style of Hebrews was different and unique to the other Greek letters floating around at the time. It is good to know the writings of the early church writers or early church authorities but we can not take everything they say to the bank. They were not privy to the resources or technology that we have today. Even if they did, we know that on a number of accounts they were not always accurate. Maybe, God willing, in the near future. I can elaborate more on Hebrews with some specifics if this is allowable on this forum. I was just trying to share the almost unanimous consensus of scholars on the style of the author's text (of Hebrews ) . I realize that some get tired hearing that phrase about - "most scholars say that the NT was written in Greek, " and so on. But I was trying to be a little more specific or trying to zero in on one example. I was just trying to say (on the same note more-less) that something should be taken into account when the percentage of Greek scholars or commentators who say that the Greek epistle to Hebrews is almost just like High Greek that, if it is a translation then we have a extremely rare translator indeed. Every single in depth commentary that I have come across which has a section on the style of the writing (of Hebrews ) says that it is unmistakably high Greek. Just take it for what it is worth, Chuck. Anyway, God willing, I will bring forward some examples. Take care. Yeshua loves all us with a passion. Amen ][/b]


Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - Burning one - 04-19-2013

Mike Kar Wrote:Chuck, no one knows who wrote Hebrews. From the time of the early church period and the ante Nicene era the issue of the authorship of Hebrews is unresolved . We also do not know to where the exact location of this epistle was sent so either side can not claim a head start (so to speak ) ; and maybe, as a side thing, we should not be taking sides on this issue. We should at least try to be on the same team here. This can and should be a team effort when it comes this Biblical issue.

I am somewhat familiar with Clement's quote, and, to my knowledge he did arrive at the conclusion that the letter of Hebrews that was extant for that time(back then ) was the Greek Hebrews and admitted that the Greek flavor and style of Hebrews was different and unique to the other Greek letters floating around at the time. It is good to know the writings of the early church writers or early church authorities but we can not take everything they say to the bank. They were not privy to the resources or technology that we have today. Even if they did, we know that on a number of accounts they were not always accurate. Maybe, God willing, in the near future. I can elaborate more on Hebrews with some specifics if this is allowable on this forum. I was just trying to share the almost unanimous consensus of scholars on the style of the author's text (of Hebrews ) . I realize that some get tired hearing that phrase about - "most scholars say that the NT was written in Greek, " and so on. But I was trying to be a little more specific or trying to zero in on one example. I was just trying to say (on the same note more-less) that something should be taken into account when the percentage of Greek scholars or commentators who say that the Greek epistle to Hebrews is almost just like High Greek that, if it is a translation then we have a extremely rare translator indeed. Every single in depth commentary that I have come across which has a section on the style of the writing (of Hebrews ) says that it is unmistakably high Greek. Just take it for what it is worth, Chuck. Anyway, God willing, I will bring forward some examples. Take care. Yeshua loves all us with a passion. Amen ][/b]


Shlama Mike,


are you SURE know one knows who wrote Hebrews? i always towed this line, until i read Hebrews in the Peshitta some years back - in the Aramaic, and read also the uncontested letters of Paul. i was struck by the similarity in presentation/thought/vocabulary. i didn't start out with the intent to prove anything of authorship, by the way. now, i personally don't doubt Paul wrote the book of Hebrews in the Aramaic. i'd love to hear from others on this site who have read the Peshitta's Aramaic Hebrews, and if they think the same when it comes to Paul's known letters. to me, it is obvious.

there are ample evidences of word-plays and poetic devices, and even some instances where the Greek got the Aramaic word wrong. Hebrews is an awesome book in any language, tho, i'd bet. but it shines in the Aramaic, trust me!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy


Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - distazo - 04-19-2013

Burning one Wrote:Shlama Mike,


are you SURE know one knows who wrote Hebrews? i always towed this line, until i read Hebrews in the Peshitta some years back - in the Aramaic, and read also the uncontested letters of Paul. i was struck by the similarity in presentation/thought/vocabulary. i didn't start out with the intent to prove anything of authorship, by the way. now, i personally don't doubt Paul wrote the book of Hebrews in the Aramaic. i'd love to hear from others on this site who have read the Peshitta's Aramaic Hebrews, and if they think the same when it comes to Paul's known letters. to me, it is obvious.

there are ample evidences of word-plays and poetic devices, and even some instances where the Greek got the Aramaic word wrong. Hebrews is an awesome book in any language, tho, i'd bet. but it shines in the Aramaic, trust me!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

I don't have the book, but Yigal Yadin, a Jewish leader and archaeologist, commented on Hebrews.
He knows a lot about the Essenes and their way of believing.
Someone did a lecture on Hebrews and compared the Essenes believe with the contents of Hebrews. For instance, a lot about 'angels', and the total lacking element of the temple of Jerusalem. Essenes also did not like boasting so therefore it was 'anonymous'.

There were about 10 checks there were done and I believe that Essenes were not just in Qumram. They could have been converted by John the Baptist for instance.

Further on, when we compare the choice of words in 'the letter of Hebrews' with those of Paul, they are very much in common.
The Greek has much less in common.


Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - ScorpioSniper2 - 04-21-2013

Thanks for all the replies everyone, and for the interesting things you all are writing about the Epistle to the Hebrews. Can any of you all supply citation for the quotes I mentioned in the original post?


Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - Mike Kar - 04-23-2013

Scorpio,

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia; Epistle to the Hebrews: [under] Literary Form: "The writer was evidently a man of culture who had a masterly command of the Greek language. The theory of Clement of Alexandria that the work was a translation from the Hebrew was merely an inference from the supposition that it was addressed to Hebrew speaking Christians. It bears none of the marks of a translation. It it written in pure idiomatice Greek. . . . He was well read in Hellenic literally and had probably made a careful study of Philo. His argument proceeds carefully and methodically , in general, though not in strict, accord with the rules of Greek rhetoric, and without the interruptions and digressions which render Paul's arguments hard to follow. Where the literary sklll of the author comes out is in the deft adjustment of the argumentative to the hortatory sections. (Moffat, Introduction; 424). He has been classed with Luke as the most cultured of the early Christian writers. "

Mike Karoules. And that is one witness.



Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - Mike Kar - 04-23-2013

Scorpio,

Here is another source (at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.VeritasBible.com">www.VeritasBible.com</a><!-- w -->), [under] Bible Study: New Testament Books; Epistle to the Hebrews: "Even in the first centuries - commentators noticed the striking purity of language and elegance of Greek style that characterized the Epistle to the Hebrews(Clement of Alexandria in Eusebius. 'Hist. Eccl.', 6, 14, n. 2-4; Origen, ibid., 6, 25, n. 11-14). This observation is confirmed by later authorities. In fact the author of the Epistle shows great familiarity with the rules of the Greek literary language of his age. Of all the New Testament authors he has the best style. His writing may even be included among those of examples of artistic Greek prose whose rhythm recalls the parallelism of Hebrew poetry (cf. Fr. Blass, [Barnabas] Brief andie Hebraer; Text with Indications of the rhythm, Halle, 1903).

Just some things to add to the discussion. I guess all that to say this: The writer of Hebrews' Greek was significanlty different (and higher) than most all, if not all, the writers of the New Testament and he had a very good and firm handle on his Greek. It seems to me that he was not tied down at all to some manuscript copy before him when writing this letter. But just some food on the table - for thought.

Kindly,

Mike Karoules



Re: Aramaic Primacy Questions - Thirdwoe - 04-23-2013

:

Mike,

It is also true that The King James Version, translated from Greek texts, is said to be a marvel of English prose, better than other literary works of its time, but we know it's a translation none the less.

Instead of just hearing what others might say, why not take the time and read the book of Hebrews in its Aramaic form, and see what you think of it? And is it very important to you that The Letter written to The Hebrew?s must 1st be in Greek? I often wonder why some are so concerned that The NT might not have been originally written down in Greek.

Jesus was not a Greek, His Apostles were not Greeks, and Jesus instructed the Apostles that when they evangelized the world, to make certain to go to the Hebrews (Jews) 1st. And so they did, as we see in the book of Acts, where even Apostle Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) builds the Gentile Church with hundreds of Hebrews (Jews), from the Synagogues, where he sought out converts. These where the People whom Paul placed as leaders in the 1st Churches of the West?Men who had a prior history in Judaism, knew the Scriptures well, and who were Israelites of the Diaspora.

Shlama,
Chuck