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Sinning in the womb - Printable Version

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Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-04-2012

Does anyone here know if the CoE accepts this as truth? Meaning, if they believe that a child can actually sin while they are in the womb? Or is sin only recognized once a child's intellect and ability to know they are sinning has developed?


Re: Sinning in the womb - Thirdwoe - 09-04-2012

:

Do you mean the doctrine of "Original Sin"?


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-04-2012

I don't think so, but I'm not entirely sure. It may or may not be another belief the RCC upholds, but I do know that such a statement was once used to explain John 9:1-2:

"9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, ?Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind??

Some attempt to explain what the disciples asked Jesus by stating that a child is able to "sin in the womb", and thus, can be "born blind." While others, Origen, for example - a beloved 2nd-century Saint that was "de-sainted" in about 500 BC, I believe - attributed such a statement to reincarnation.

So if the CoE doesn't adhere to such a teaching - either to Original Sin or the ability to sin in the womb, then what exactly is their take on John 9? How can a child be born blind?


Re: Sinning in the womb - Paul Younan - 09-05-2012

Seeker Wrote:I don't think so, but I'm not entirely sure. It may or may not be another belief the RCC upholds, but I do know that such a statement was once used to explain John 9:1-2:

"9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, ?Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind??

Some attempt to explain what the disciples asked Jesus by stating that a child is able to "sin in the womb", and thus, can be "born blind." While others, Origen, for example - a beloved 2nd-century Saint that was "de-sainted" in about 500 BC, I believe - attributed such a statement to reincarnation.

So if the CoE doesn't adhere to such a teaching - either to Original Sin or the ability to sin in the womb, then what exactly is their take on John 9? How can a child be born blind?

Hi Seeker,

The Church of the East does not believe in the concept of "Original Sin" in the sense that the RCC does, i.e., that Adam & Eve's (or other ancestor's) sin is inherited by their descendants. The CoE does believe, however, that we are born with a nature to sin due to the fact that our human nature (kyana) was corrupted in the Garden of Eden. But to be very specific, each child is born guilt-free and sinless. Sin requires a knowledge of right and wrong, and a willful act.

What the Church of the East believes regarding John 9 is that the disciples asked a question that was rooted in ignorance and superstition (shared, incidentally, by the Pharisees (v.34)), and that Meshikha corrected them in His answer: "'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.'"

+Shamasha Paul


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-05-2012

Hi Shamasha Paul,

Paul Younan Wrote:But to be very specific, each child is born guilt-free and sinless. Sin requires a knowledge of right and wrong, and a willful act.

That's all I needed to know. Couldn't possibly make more sense.

Paul Younan Wrote:What the Church of the East believes regarding John 9 is that the disciples asked a question that was rooted in ignorance and superstition (shared, incidentally, by the Pharisees (v.34)), and that Meshikha corrected them in His answer: "'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.'"

+Shamasha Paul

I don't know if I'll be able to get past how Jesus didn't correct their ignorance (or even reject it) if ignorance truly was the reason why they asked such a question, but it's great to know the CoE's take on the matter. Thanks a lot for your response and the information. I appreciate it.

Take care.


Re: Sinning in the womb - Paul Younan - 09-05-2012

Seeker Wrote:I don't know if I'll be able to get past how Jesus didn't correct their ignorance (or even reject it) if ignorance truly was the reason why they asked such a question..

Hi again Seeker,

I think He did reject it by the substance of His answer. He did not mean that the blind man and his parents were sinless, as that would be impossible. But that neither his sins nor their sins were responsible in any way for his being born blind.

Contrast that with what the pharisees said in v34. They claimed he was "steeped in sin from birth," which is somewhat akin to your original question about the RC doctrine of "original sin." Christ clearly corrected that.

If the punishment for being born to sinful parents was such, we should all be blind.

Many eastern religions like Hinduism teach horrendous things like this, as being a result of "bad karma" from previous lives, and other such nonsense.

In contrast, the scriptures teach us that everything, even seemingly unfair circumstances, are ultimately for the purpose of God's glory.

+Shamasha Paul


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-05-2012

Shamahsa Paul,

Paul Younan Wrote:I think He did reject it by the substance of His answer. He did not mean that the blind man and his parents were sinless, as that would be impossible. But that neither his sins nor their sins were responsible in any way for his being born blind.

What I was pointing to actually wasn't sin, as he obviously rejected that, but rather I'm puzzled as to why Jesus didn't reject the statement from the disciples (and correct their, as you say, ignorance) regarding the man being born blind. Was it not important or was it possibly an intentional failure to recognize what they said? I just wonder why He overlooked such a comment and didn't say something along the lines of, "how could a child have sinned before he was born?" Perhaps He choose not to answer in such a way so as not to disclose certain information for whatever reason(s) He may have had?

Paul Younan Wrote:Many eastern religions like Hinduism teach horrendous things like this, as being a result of "bad karma" from previous lives, and other such nonsense.

With due respect, I have to disagree. I personally don't think it's horrendous - both karma and reincarnation seem to make sense. Whether or not it's true, I can't say for sure, but it really would clear up a lot of things if such was the case - even if it's not currently an openly-accepted doctrine in the Christian faith. Though, from what I've read, it was accepted by the early church, but I haven't put much research into that just yet, so I'm not sure. What Origen had said seemed to have been accepted for 300 years, though, and then...poof! Just makes you think.

For instance, how long do people usually live these days? I think I read somewhere that the oldest living lady is/was a 116 years old? So are we suppose to follow through with -all- that God wants from us in such a short amount of time? How about those who haven't found Christ that die at half that age? Or worse yet, babies before they're baptized? Do they go directly to hell? Wouldn't it make more sense that He who is defined as love wouldn't do that to children who had not yet been given a chance to learn about Him, repent, become baptized, etc? I mean even statements like, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee", would start to make a bit more sense, wouldn't they?

From what I've recently read, many claim that reincarnation is all about walking from life to life, learning as much as you can about God, having what you've learned move on through to the the next life with you, until you finally reach "the" highest spiritual state. They also claim that scars or birthmarks follow through to the next life, as well. Now maybe I'm reaching here (...and far), but could that possibly have been the case with Jesus? That His scars remained but that He'd been given a new body? Now before you deem me a heretic (if you haven't already) and ban my IP address, please hear me out.

The reason I concluded that such -may- be the case was because of John 20:15, where Mary says to Jesus, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." How is it that Mary Magdalene, being the first women to have seen Jesus after His resurrection, didn't notice that it was Jesus? Was it dark? Did He have something covering His face? As mentioned, the scars from His previous life remained, but how to explain Mary not realizing it was Him? A woman who had known Jesus, was healed by Him (could you forget someone's face who healed you the way Jesus healed Mary?), more than likely saw Him perform many miracles, was being taught by Him, and actually KNEW what He looked like, was unable to recognize Him? It wasn't until He said her name that she realized it was Him? Is it not possible that Mary simply didn't recognize Jesus because He was in His new ("heavenly") body?

Paul Younan Wrote:If the punishment for being born to sinful parents was such, we should all be blind.

I believe in what scripture teaches - that the child is not responsible for the parents sin. But what about his own? Is it truly outside the realm of biblical possibility that a man could have sinned in a previous life, chose not to accept that Christ has abolished all of His sin, and then suffered the consequence in the "age to come?" Perhaps the reason the apostles asked the question about the man being "born blind" was because they somehow knew that he may have sinned in his past life. Wouldn't that explain a lot? Wouldn't this show us that God isn't "mean" and doesn't cause kids to be born a certain way, but rather the the reason they are born a certain way was because of their OWN choices in a previous life? Maybe the reason paraplegics are born that way is because they committed suicide by jumping off of a high rise building? In other words, they "longed to die, but death eluded them." I know this sounds wild, but who can say with absolute certainty that such things are not true?

As a Christian, I'm not fully convinced of any of this, but I currently can't bring my self to quickly and fully dismiss such ideas either.


Re: Sinning in the womb - Thirdwoe - 09-05-2012

:

Seeker,

You might as well dump all that speculation and never ending question making about other religions being true in their conflicting teachings with what God has said through His Prophets, Apostles, and His One and Only Begotten Son. Why dig in the trash for Mystery Meat, when you can eat Prime Rib with God's enlightend ones?

Luke 9:29 "As He was praying, the appearance of His face changed, and His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."

Jesus' face could change in appearance...He didn't need to re-incarnate into another body, His worked just fine.

Mark 16:12 "Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country."

Jesus could appear in different forms. His Resurrected body was the very same body that He was born with and was crucified in...yet glorifed and not bound by the natural laws He created.

Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,..."

The Bible does not teach re-incarnation and the transmigration of souls into multiple new bodies and new lives, just to die again and again and again, until you maybe get it right.

The "Karma" idea to some degree is true...As Jesus says, "You will reap what you sow" and "if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword." But this is not going to follow you into multiple lives on earth, until you only have "good Karma" paying you back.

Quote:Maybe the reason paraplegics are born that way is because they committed suicide by jumping off of a high rise building? In other words, they "longed to die, but death eluded them." I know this sounds wild, but who can say with absolute certainty that such things are not true?

I can, because GOD says it's not true.
---> Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,..."
---> 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-05-2012

Thirdwoe,

Thirdwoe Wrote:Why dig in the trash for Mystery Meat, when you can eat Prime Rib with God's enlightend ones?

If a Muslim tells me lying is wrong, is what he says incorrect because he's not a Christian?

Plus, it's the bible that gave me these ideas and Christian Saints confirmed my thoughts. Like I mentioned earlier, this was accepted by the early church for 300 years.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Luke 9:29 "As He was praying, the appearance of His face changed, and His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."

Jesus' face could change in appearance...He didn't need to re-incarnate into another body, His worked just fine.

The appearance of His face can change regardless of what structure the flesh had, because He's God. I'm not sure how His face changing would automatically lead you to conclude that He was in the same body once resurrected. Can you please make sense of that for me?

Thirdwoe Wrote:The Bible does not teach re-incarnation and the transmigration of souls into multiple new bodies and new lives

I know. As I mentioned above, it's not something that is openly talked about or taught, but many things seem to lead to just that.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Mark 16:12 "Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country."

Jesus could appear in different forms. His Resurrected body was the very same body that He was born with and was crucified in...yet glorifed and not bound by the natural laws He created.

Do you know if the meaning of "glorified" is explained in detail anywhere?

Thirdwoe Wrote:The "Karma" idea to some degree is true...As Jesus says, "You will reap what you sow" and "if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword." But this is not going to follow you into multiple lives on earth, until you only have "good Karma" paying you back.

Until? So you're saying there is something scriptural that speaks of us having "multiple lives on earth" due to "good karma?" Can you please provide scripture to back that up?

Thirdwoe Wrote:I can, because GOD says it's not true.

Does He, though?

Thirdwoe Wrote:---> Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,..."

You die one time, yes, and then judgment, sure, then what? What happens after judgment?

Thirdwoe Wrote:---> 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

No one's denied this. Again, that is the judgement part. What happens after judgment, though? You either move on to Life, and ascend to the Father in heaven as Jesus did, or what? Could "hell" possibly be returning back within this body?


Re: Sinning in the womb - Thirdwoe - 09-05-2012

:

Seeker,

Quote:If a Muslim tells me lying is wrong, is what he says incorrect because he's not a Christian?

No, because it is true. What you are talking about isn't.

Quote:Plus, it's the bible that gave me these ideas and Christian Saints confirmed my thoughts. Like I mentioned earlier, this was accepted by the early church for 300 years.

Not at all true? The Bible does not teach re-incarnation, as is taught in false religions, nor have any Christian Saints confirmed it to be true, nor did the early Church ever teach such things, during any period. You did not get your ideas from any of these sources.


Quote:The appearance of His face can change regardless of what structure the flesh had, because He's God. I'm not sure how His face changing would automatically lead you to conclude that He was in the same body once resurrected. Can you please make sense of that for me?

He was in the same body that He was born and died in on the Cross, and is still in right now in Heaven, though in a glorified state, and not bound by the natural laws that He created to govern the material realm. The Son of God does not need to get another body; He resurrected the same one He died in...and He will also Resurrect the same bodies that all His Holy Ones have and will die in, when He returns to restore all things. All souls are in Paradise now...awaiting this event, they are not sent repeatedly into new bodies to live out new adventures on Earth. What would be the point? They have already passed the test, and have been given Eternal Life. They don't need to get it right; they have it all right already, in Christ.


Quote:I know. As I mentioned above, it's not something that is openly talked about or taught, but many things seem to lead to just that.

What "seems" to be, is often misleading. This is one of them. It won't hold water, no matter how much duct tape you use.


Quote:Do you know if the meaning of "glorified" is explained in detail anywhere?

Perfected...incorruptible, being freed from the curse of sin and death and no longer subject to it...being eternal and no need for another body to live in.


Quote:So you're saying there is something scriptural that speaks of us having "multiple lives on earth" due to "good karma?" Can you please provide scripture to back that up?

No, because that is not what it teaches and is not what I believe or teach. On this particular Earth that we were once born in, we live One Life, after our bodies die and when Christ Returns, we will be "glorified" in this physical body and those who are still living at that time, will be instantly glorified as well. And then we will all dwell in a New Heaven and New Earth, where there is no more death...and thus no need to keep coming back after you keep on dying over and over again.


Quote:Does He, though?

Yes...Truly.


Quote:You die one time, yes, and then judgment, sure, then what? What happens after judgment?

After Judgment, comes the Reward...


Quote:No one's denied this. Again, that is the judgement part. What happens after judgment, though? You either move on to Life, and ascend to the Father in heaven as Jesus did, or what? Could "hell" possibly be returning back within this body?

After Judgement, comes the Reward. Those who are Born of Water and The Spirit, upon their physical death, go, in their Soul/Spirit to Paradise, to await the final judgment when Christ Returns to judge the living and the dead. The redeemed among Men, have Eternal Life already, but their bodies await the time of the Resurrection, which takes place on the Last Day, when Christ Returns to restore ALL things.

Seeker, read what Jesus had to say about the rich Man and Lazarus, and tell me if that sounds like living another life on Earth, is that what it says the rich man who died is experiencing?


Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-05-2012

Thirdwoe,

Thirdwoe Wrote:Not at all true? The Bible does not teach re-incarnation, as is taught in false religions, nor have any Christian Saints confirmed it to be true, nor did the early Church ever teach such things, during any period. You did not get your ideas from any of these sources.

I didn't say it taught reincarnation, I said that the idea came to me by reading the bible.

Also, before making such a claim, perhaps you should read about Origen, who was a beloved Christian Saint in the 2nd century before he was "de-sainted" in the 5th century for his belief in reincarnation. I'll see if I can gather up some more information on him, as well, but it's obvious you don't know who he is, so please do look him up.

Thirdwoe Wrote:He was in the same body that He was born and died in on the Cross

Thirdwoe, I understand your position - what I'm asking from you is to prove it. Not being able to prove such a position won't invalidate your claim, but surely it would leave room for debate?

Thirdwoe Wrote:Son of God does not need to get another body

I don't think He needed a new body either, but maybe for whatever reason receiving a new one is -just- the way it works?

It seems as if you are denying such a claim based on nothing more than what you think "glorified" means and based on what you think is true, not because there's any solid proof indicating that He had the same body. I'm not driving my point home with that one example above about Mary that wouldn't hold weight on its best day, but (and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this) you're not really knocking the ball out of the park with your examples either.

Thirdwoe Wrote:He resurrected the same one He died in...and He will also Resurrect the same bodies that all His Holy Ones have and will die in, when He returns to restore all things.

"Same bodies": This is what I'm saying is something we don't have actual evidence of. How do you know? If such is truly the case, I will accept it, but you have to give me something more than simply saying that such is the case.

Thirdwoe Wrote:All souls are in Paradise now...awaiting this event, they are not sent repeatedly into new bodies to live out new adventures on Earth. What would be the point?

You seem like a passionate person, and I love engaging in conversations with people like you, but if you don't read what I write, then what is the point in replying? To simply tell me what's on your mind and what it is that you've learned and have been told about the bible your whole life? I don't want that, because it would mean that you're not actually paying attention to what it is that I'm saying.

Anyway, here is your answer:

Seeker Wrote:...many claim that reincarnation is all about walking from life to life, learning as much as you can about God, having what you've learned move on through to the the next life with you, until you finally reach "the" highest spiritual state.

I'm not claiming with certainty that the above is "the point", but even if it wasn't, there may be a million reasons as to why reincarnation may be true. Who's to say? You? Me? Who are we? Collectively speaking, has our wisdom as a humanity neared God's wisdom? Of course not. So how much less you? Or me? Yet you won't allow room - not a single cm - for the possibility of there being an actual reason behind why God would allow such a thing. So be it.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Perfected...incorruptible, being freed from the curse of sin and death and no longer subject to it...being eternal and no need for another body to live in.

That's a bold claim - an obviously accepted one, but still. I'd like to know how the above is not just your perception of what is true. Did you read this information from a reliable source? If so, please provide that source. If not, then did it come entirely from your own mind?

Thirdwoe Wrote:No, because that is not what it teaches and is not what I believe or teach.

The reason I asked that question was because of the way you phrased your answer here:

Thirdwoe Wrote:But this is not going to follow you into multiple lives on earth, until you only have "good Karma" paying you back.

You basically implied that "multiple lives" wouldn't occur until you "have good karma" - indicating that "multiple lives" -would- occur. Not trying to nitpick here, just clearing that up.

Thirdwoe Wrote:On this particular Earth that we were once born in, we live One Life, after our bodies die and when Christ Returns, we will be "glorified" in this physical body and those who are still living at that time, will be instantly glorified as well. And then we will all dwell in a New Heaven and New Earth, where there is no more death...and thus no need to keep coming back after you keep on dying over and over again.

Thirdwoe, the traditional Christian belief on this topic is something I believe most people understand, but if you re-read my response to Shamasha above, you'll see why I'm having a hard time accepting such a thing and why reincarnation just seems to make a lot of sense. Like I said above, I don't know for sure that such is the case, and although I do greatly appreciate your response, nothing you've said so far really proves anything besides the belief that most Christians currently uphold.

Thirdwoe Wrote:After Judgment, comes the Reward...

What reward do unbaptized babies get? Where do they go? How about, as I mentioned above, those who God knows will eventually come to repentance in Christ, but that such a seed won't harvest in their current lifetime. How about them? What "reward" will they get from such a God who is defined as Love? Eternal hellfire?

Thirdwoe Wrote:After Judgement, comes the Reward. Those who are Born of Water and The Spirit, upon their physical death, go, in their Soul/Spirit to Paradise, to await the final judgment when Christ Returns to judge the living and the dead. The redeemed among Men, have Eternal Life already, but their bodies await the time of the Resurrection, which takes place on the Last Day, when Christ Returns to restore ALL things.

Refer to my response above.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Seeker, read what Jesus had to say about the rich Man and Lazarus, and tell me if that sounds like living another life on Earth, is that what it says the rich man who died is experiencing?

"Sounds." Exactly. Are we suppose to take everything the bible says so literally? Wasn't it you that said how everything is not what it seems? Does that logic only apply to other religious teachings?

We've already established that such a thing isn't explicitly stated or taught within current Christan sects. Also, there is much hyperbole in biblical text, this you can't deny, so what are we to conclude with this parable? Here is the only information we've been given that actually describes where Lazarus was:

"he was in torment"

"In Hades, where he was in torment"

"he looked up and saw Abraham far away"

"I am in agony in this fire."

"those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."


Okay, so we have "torment", and we have the rich Man "looking up at Abraham", and then finally, we have him not being able to go where Abraham currently was/is. You feel confident claiming that he wasn't on earth because of that? Do we not experience torment on earth? Do most Christians, while on earth, not look up to heaven and pray to the saints? Are all men freely able to walk in and out of heaven? Because of the above you want me to believe in a red man with a pitch fork in a movie-styled hell, but you won't consider that maybe it's possible Lazarus isn't really burning in actual hell fire and that the anguish he's feeling is due to a separation from God, that somehow, is still on earth?

Maybe reincarnation sheds light on what Jesus meant by, "...with God all things are possible." The rich Man had much and cared not, and in the next life, he had nothing, and perhaps it's only then that he will finally awaken and become compassionate towards others? When he finally sees what it's like to be in such a lowly position, whatever that position may be?

Isn't it written that God is not wiling that "any" should perish? Wasn't it Jesus who said that He would draw "all" men to Himself once He was lifted from the earth? Does this not include the rich Man? If it doesn't, then God was lying. If it does (which I would hope we both believe is the case), then how does the process of drawing one near actually work? Is there a step-by-step guideline in the bible that shows us how Jesus will draw the rich Man near, or are we left to assume? Important it may not be, but for the sake of conversation, let us attempt to tackle such a question.

Think about the following passage:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ?Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, ?With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

So the conclusion above is what exactly? That if the rich man continued loving his wealth more than he loved Christ, that it would be impossible, according to Jesus, to enter the kingdom, right? Okay, so are we given any other information about the rich man or are we left to conclude that he, like MANY in this day and the days of past, cared much more about his possessions than He cared about God? If that's not the case with him, it's the case with many others. What then? Is the rich Man Jesus "loved" damned forever? Or will he find his way back home to God (...possibly) by way of reincarnation?

The rich Man having abundant wealth in that life, does not mean that he would wind up in the same circumstance in the next. Perhaps his dedication to such material wealth is drawn by his ego (which many claim is Satan) and the ego is dissolved with the body once you die ("He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short"), but the truth (as I mentioned above) remains in you (and "it will NOT be taken away from you") in the "age to come?" So he may have had a chance in his next life because "with God, all things are possible" and his lust for wealth had passed with the one who caused such a desire to spawn in the first place.


Re: Sinning in the womb - Thirdwoe - 09-06-2012

:

Seeker,

It seems to me, that you have your own ideas and want to express them and prove them somehow. I would love to continue with long hours of debate with you, but I don't have the time...more important matters to be engaged in...and besides, I don't see how this discussion has anything to do with this Forum, though interesting on some levels.

I believe that I have spoken The Truth on the matter...and we shall see how it all plays out. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my time with my Family and Friends and serve God with the Grace and Mercy He gives me to do so.

The problem is, for both of us....on this particular matter, and perhaps others, it can't be "proven" one way or the other. So we have The Scriptures and The Churches Teaching, and The Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. These are what I rely on, not my own mind.

But, don't argue with me about it, take it up with God! Go right to the Source of ALL understanding and knowledge...I could lay it all out, verse by verse, teaching by teaching, and if you just want to have your ideas be right, it won't matter how much is shown to you, by me or anyone else. And it's not my job to prove anything to you anyway, just to tell you The Truth. You can reject it, or dismiss it if you want.

But please...do some study on what Origen really taught, you are mis-representing what he teaches in his writings, just as you are God, in His.

No hard feelings here. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Sinning in the womb - Seeker - 09-06-2012

Thirdwoe,

Thank you for the time you've put into this. I know expression isn't easily relayed via this impersonal medium, but trust me when I say that I appreciate your reply and insight very much so and even wish that I had people like you around me at all times.

Thirdwoe Wrote:It seems to me, that you have your own ideas and want to express them and prove them somehow.

No, that's not it. You've claimed the same about me before, and I assured you last time, too, that such was not the case. I'm honestly not trying to prove anything. If you read my posts without bias, I really believe that you would see this.

Thirdwoe Wrote:besides, I don't see how this discussion has anything to do with this Forum

Figured this topic fell under "Anything - almost." If not, then apologies to the mods. I'll see if I can find the rules, following this post.

Thirdwoe Wrote:...and if you just want to have your ideas be right, it won't matter how much is shown to you, by me or anyone else.

You're right, but that's simply not the case with me. I think you're allowing your perception to overrule reality. What you say about me is not truth, Thirdwoe. Am I aggressive in the way I approach a situation? Yea', maybe. But my mind is not closed to what others have to say. Again, if you just read my posts from a neutral stand point, you really would see that.

Thirdwoe Wrote:But please...do some study on what Origen really taught, you are mis-representing what he teaches in his writings, just as you are God, in His.

I have it all in front of me right now...but let's save that for a later day.

Thirdwoe Wrote:No hard feelings here.

Same here. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Take care.


Re: Sinning in the womb - Thirdwoe - 09-06-2012

:

We'll, if it's true that your mind isn't closed to all what I said there, then there's hope for you to believe the Truth on the matter. If re-incarnation, as is taught by other religions were true, then The Apostles would have taught it, and passed it on to The Church.

Peace,
Chuck


Re: Sinning in the womb - Stephen Silver - 09-07-2012

Shlama Seeker and Third-Woe:
I suggest that you proof-read your entire post and correct it where appropriate. Yo have Lazarus mixed up with the rich-man and visa versa. Read the entire post and ask youreselves if you can some how find a way to condense it to a reasonable length. Much of your writing is repeated and redundant. Moreover ask yourself if this topic is a theological one, which as you know, is not aceptable on the Forum. The Topic is riding a pretty fine line. This is addressed to both of you. Both should ask yourselves "is this lengthy topic really necessary. What began as a straightforward question by Seeker of Shamasha Paul Younan has become a border-line theological debate. Ask yourself why you think Shamasha Paul has bowed out. The topic is unsavoury in my honest opinion, beyond what I have already declared.

Kindly,
Stephen Silver
(Forum Moderator)