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Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Seeker Wrote:Now I take it that once the act of removing sin was performed by one of His apostles, that the individuals whose sins have been removed would then have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as well? The two things are not separate from one another, right? Sins can't be loosed all the while not receiving the Spirit?

Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed Wrote:We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten from the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same substance as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

if you meet someone who is bishop or priest and he stands in Grace (I have not met any one so far) there are several things to do to be adopted by God as his son:

1) Learn the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed by heart
2) Get instructed or instruct yourself in at least the very basics of the Orthodox Church Doctrines
3) Confess ALL your sins to the priest/bishop you can possibly bring to your memory (write them down. that'll help)
4) Get born again to wash away your sins by triple immersion in water (done by clergy) in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
5) Get annointed with oil by clergy to receive the Holy Spirit (this replaces the laying on of hands for laymen)
6) Drink the Blood of Christ in the form of wine and eat His Flesh in the form of bread to have Life in yourself and thus you are made a member of the Church and from now on you belong to the Body of Christ Which He has ressurected on the third day (His renewed Body is not like ours. We are not cannibals)

Try to confess your sins on a daily or weekly basis because they tend to accumulate quickly and participate in the Holy Communion.

Arkady. Russia.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Thirdwoe - 02-29-2012

Arkady,

Do you know which of those things you listed did the thief on the Cross do to go with Christ into Paradise that day? And which ones of those things did the Ethiopian do, whom Apostle Philip preached the Good News about Jesus Christ to him. In the thief's case, he had only time to believe that Jesus was the Messiah of God and had faith that He could save Him...and he was. For the Ethiopian, he believed that Christ was the Messiah of God, come to forgive his sins... and he was baptised in water, when they happend to come upon some...with nothing else said to have been done in his case...Philip left him as soon as they got out of the water.

While pointing this out, I don't say that any of those things are not good to do, or should be neglected, especially if a person was seeking to be mamber of the Orthodox Church, but I think you would agree that the very 1st step, is to believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and His Messiah and that God sent Him to save us and to forgive us of our sins, by His sacrifice on the Cross, and that after He was placed in the grave, He was resurrected after 3 days and asscended back to God and is at His right hand reigning as King of kings and Lord of lord's, and is going to return to judge the living and the dead...and we are told to hope and trust in Him alone for our salvation, He being the Mediator between God and mankind. Of course the Creed speaks on these things and the doctrinal statements of The Apostolic Churches interpret these things more fully.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Thirdwoe Wrote:Arkady,

Do you know which of those things you listed did the thief on the Cross do to go with Christ into Paradise that day? And which ones of those things did the Ethiopian do, whom Apostle Philip preached the Good News about Jesus Christ to him. In the thief's case, he had only time to believe that Jesus was the Messiah of God and had faith that He could save Him...and he was. For the Ethiopian, he believed that Christ was the Messiah of God, come to forgive his sins... and he was baptised in water, when they happend to come upon some...with nothing else said to have been done in his case...Philip left him as soon as they got out of the water.

While pointing this out, I don't say that any of those things are not good to do, or should be neglected, but I say the very 1st step, is to believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that God sent Him to save us and to forgive us of our sins, by His sacrifice on the Cross, anf that after He was placed in the grave, He was resurrected after 3 days and asscended back to God...and we are told to hope and trust in Him for our salvation, He being the Mediator between God and mankind.

Shlama,
Chuck
Chuck,

let us not underestimate the importance of the holy mysteries.

Concerning the faith: This goes without saying. Now is it not what the Creed is good for. Is not that obvious that the person shall believe in what and Who he confesses.

The cases, the one of the ethiopian and the other of the thief are rather exceptional in nature. Why would anyone rely on them for the lack of a better excuse?

Concerning the eunuch: Unlike the thief the eunuch was not to die right after so I do not see how this contradicts with what I said:

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8:38)

So he baptized him. That's it. Ethiopian could complete the act of his initiation later. He had enough time.

Concerning the thief: While martyrs were baptized in their blood shed for their Saviour, this cannot be so said of the thief because he was crusified for what he had done. At that point baptism in the New Testament as a sacrement had not been yet established. But it would after His resurrection:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matt 28:19)

Now the thief was crusified on the right side of the Saviour, not the way it is depicted in the Mel Gibson's movie "Passion of Christ" (in the Latin Church tradition).

But St. John Chrysostom confirms that the thief was baptized in the Blood of Chirst (my translation from the russian text):

"So, do not be of the doubtful mind: the Grace of God is perfect; so the place itself hinders it not. Were you baptized here, or on the ship, or when going somewhere. Philip baptized during his journey, Paul while he was locked in chains; Christ baptized the thief from his wound when hanging on the cross. In doing so He has straightaway enabled him [the thief] to open the gates of Paradise. So nothing saddens the joy and ravishment of mine in my returning to you."

(Volume 3, Book 2, 4. Word on the St. John Returning from Asia to Constantinople)

In the next homily St. Chrysostom expounds the mystery more deeply:

"Just is my God, worker of the salvation! As our forefather Adam has He driven out of the Paradise not for many transgressions but for one, even so on the scales of His truth it was weighed to be equal for the thief to enter into the Paradise not for many manifestations of his faith but for just one. I said, given that the transgression of Adam against the commandment consisted in touching the tree ; in what did the vindication of the thief? He entered into the Paradise through the touching the cross with faith. What followed after?

Salvation was promised to the thief of the Saviour; meanwhile time did not suffice him to realize his faith and to be enlightened [through the baptism], for it was said: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5). He neither had an opportunity nor time to be baptized since he was hung on the cross. Saviour however has found the solution out of the thief's pitiful plight.

Since the man stained by multiple sins has obtained faith in the Saviour and he needed to be washed of them, Christ organized everything in the manner that after He shall have suffered, one of the soldiers shall pierce His rib and out of it gushed blood and water, as the evangelist says, "and forthwith came there out blood and water." (John 19:34) in confirming the validity of His death and in the prefiguration of the sacraments.

And water and blood gushed out, - not just merely flowed out, but with noise. It splashed upon the body of the thief. Because when it comes out with much noise, it spatters, but when it oozes out, it flows out evenly and quietly. But from the rib the blood and the water came out with noise so that it splashed up upon the thief and with this sprinkling he was baptized, even as the apostle says: we are come "unto mount Sion... and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22,24)

So why the blood of Christ speaketh better than that of Abel? Then when as the blood of Abel dropped upon the head of his murderer, the blood of Christ altogether cleanses repented killers. So learn from this the zeal to stand in the truth and to love the confidence for the Christ's sake."

(St. John Chrysostom. On Zeal and Piety, and on the Born Blind)

St. Ephrem the Syrian (~300), St. Anastasius Sinaita (~700), Russian St. Dimitry of Rostov (~1700) all agree to this thought.

Moreover Christ gave him His blood to drink.

Arkady. Russia.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Thirdwoe - 02-29-2012

Quote:let us not underestimate the importance of the holy mysteries.

I don't and haven't, it is very important. Note my words here...
Quote:While pointing this out, I don't say that any of those things are not good to do, or should be neglected, but I say the very 1st step, is to believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that God sent Him to save us and to forgive us of our sins, by His sacrifice on the Cross, anf that after He was placed in the grave, He was resurrected after 3 days and asscended back to God...and we are told to hope and trust in Him for our salvation, He being the Mediator between God and mankind.

True Christianity is about a relationship with Christ, not a religion about Christ. This is what I believe needs to be pointed out.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Seeker - 02-29-2012

Thanks a lot for the Words, Thirdwoe.

Arkady Wrote:if you meet someone who is bishop or priest and he stands in Grace (I could not meet any one so far) there are several things to do to be adopted by God as his son:

This has actually been on my mind for a while now. How in heaven's name do you know who "stands in Grace" and who doesn't? How can anyone tell who truly has spiritual authority (or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) to properly perform all of the tasks you've mentioned? Are there telltale signs I should be looking for? It states that, "you will know them by their fruit." So if someone -doesn't- showcase the fruit of the Spirit (which are love, joy, peace, etc), is that how you know that they're not "them?"

Also, if I get baptized by a bishop or priest that I think is in Grace, but is not, then what? Has my baptism amounted to nothing?

I think the above questions are important because I would assume that people -do- need to be "in Grace" in order to impart that Grace upon others. I mean you can't go to a local pharmacy and have some random clerk behind the counter anoint you with oil, as that'll obviously be of no effect. But then is it different just because you are a priest? Do all priests have the indwelling?

Arkady Wrote:Get born again to wash away your sins by triple immersion in water by clergy in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

I've actually been looking into getting baptized, but have not found the proper setting.

Now just so we're on the same page, by "immersion", you mean literally, right? As in, my entire body? If so, then that's what I would like done and what I believe the apostles did, but who does that these days? Guess I'll just have to figure that out.

Arkady Wrote:Get annointed with oil by clergy to receive the Holy Spirit (this replaces the laying on of hadns for laymen)

Two-part question:

1.) What possible reason could there be for change? Was the giving of the Holy Spirit by the laying of the apostles' hands not good enough? It's been the accepted method of imparting the Holy Spirit by those who we know were truly moved by the Holy Spirit, and now after a quick Google search I see that such an act was left out because it was "not considered essential?" Really? We know that God never changes, so why is it that man is always trying to mold Him into what he thinks He is? What am I missing here?

2.) The oil. Speaking with regard to the Churches of the East, Wikipedia states, "They also add a portion of the old anointing oil to the newly made anointing oil to establish a continuity of the oil, believed to reach back to the early disciples." So is the oil ineffective if it doesn't have that continuity factor? If so, that would make it even harder to find a church that actually has the "right" oil. If it doesn't matter, then why put so much effort into preserving that link?

Arkady Wrote:Try to confess your sins on a daily or weekly basis because they tend to accumulate quickly and participate in the Holy Communion.

After one gets baptized, do their daily sins need to be confessed to a priest? Or can they confess them wherever, whenever?

Thanks again, everyone.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Hi, Seeker

(you're quoting my original post. I've amended it a bit here and there. it's cool though.)

Thirdwoe Wrote:True Christianity is about a relationship with Christ, not a religion about Christ. This is what I believe needs to be pointed out.
One shall not go for simplicity in these troublesome times like 'I got a bible and I don't want to know anything I just want to be with Christ.' A wealth of different sorts of so-called "churches" shall serve to us as a warning sign, "Something is very, very wrong here!"

Seeker Wrote:Also, if I get baptized by a bishop or priest that I think is in Grace, but is not, then what? Has my baptism amounted to nothing?
Let's hope this would not be the case.

Seeker Wrote:Do all priests have the indwelling?
No. Most of them do not.
Whether do they have the Spirit of Christ? - I've answered this question earlier.
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18648#p18648">viewtopic.php?p=18648#p18648</a><!-- l -->

Seeker Wrote:Now just so we're on the same page, by "immersion", you mean literally, right? As in, my entire body? If so, then that's what I would like done and what I believe the apostles did.
Yes. Literally. Entire body. Thrice.

Seeker Wrote:but who does that these days?
Now do you see what I am talking about here? The sacraments are getting profaned all around the world. Would you really esteem your salvation so lightly since you said you could not find a proper setting? C'mon.

Seeker Wrote:What possible reason could there be for change?
The only thing I know is that it was replaced for laymen at some point in time in the early Church.

Seeker Wrote:If it doesn't matter, then why put so much effort into preserving that link?
I guess it matters. Everything that is done in the Church is done for a reason.

Seeker Wrote:Also, if I get baptized by a bishop or priest that I think is in Grace, but is not, then what? Has my baptism amounted to nothing?
I think in certain cases you may be baptized by a layman who is not a heretic.

Seeker Wrote:After one gets baptized, do their daily sins need to be confessed to a priest? Or can they confess them wherever, whenever?
To priest. to get an absolution. Remember it's only bishops and priests to whom The Keys were entrusted (talking about a true bishop and a true priest, not just a random from CVS).

PS Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

Arkady. Russia.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Seeker Wrote:Are there telltale signs I should be looking for?
There are. Apart from the ones you've mentioned:
-if he properly realizes the fact that this present world is literally going to hell <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
-if he doesn't turn aside from the teaching and doctrines of the Church (Christ's, apostles', bishops', fathers',..)

examine his works if he has any:
-if he's defended the Orthodox faith against the unholy and impious
-if he's written anything on theology
-if he's written anything on prayer and penitence
-if he's written anything in which he interpretes the Holy Scriptures or\and the writtings of the Church fathers
-if he's written/preached any sermons/homilies
-if he's composed any prayers (that work)

Arkady. Russia.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Thirdwoe - 02-29-2012

Quote:One shall not go for simplicity in these troublesome times like 'I got a bible and I don't want to know anything I just want to be with Christ.' A wealth of different sorts of so-called "churches" shall serve to us as a warning sign, "Something is very, very wrong here!"

I agree that there are far to many "churches" today..and some are more messed up in their teaching than others are....But just going to ANY Church does not make you a Christian, forgiven of your sins, or Born Again by the Holy Spirit, anymore than going to McDonalds makes you a Cheese Burger, Chocolate Shake, or Large Fries.


P.S. Seeker, you sure seem to have a long history in Christianity to me...and you ask many questions, but don't you have the answers to many of them that you believe are right already? It seems that way to me so far. It's like you want to teach something you believe is true, more than you want to learn what others say is true...which is not bad really, unless the teaching you bring is not true...then it's not good.

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Seeker - 02-29-2012

Arkady Wrote:you're quoting my original post. I've amended it a bit here and there. it's cool though.)

Yea', sorry. I started looking into anointment last night while replying to your post and wound up getting tired and going to sleep. So I finished up my quote earlier today. Nothing different besides a slight typo and a couple brackets, though, so your message still came through. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Arkady Wrote:No. Most of them do not.
Whether do they have the Spirit of Christ? - I've answered this question earlier.
viewtopic.php?p=18648#p18648

That they speaks in tongues? That's all I got from that post.

Arkady Wrote:Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

Oh, I know. Having read what I wrote again, it does seem as if I was placing somewhat significant weight on what it says, but trust me, I didn't mean to. I already knew that churches do that, so I guess instead of typing it out myself, I provided Wiki as a source.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Seeker Wrote:That they speaks in tongues?
More necessary that they don't. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Arkady.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Seeker - 02-29-2012

Thirdwoe Wrote:...you sure seem to have a long history in Christianity to me...

I do. But I've always been -told- I was a Christian and told that I should love God, but never did so because it was a decision that I made on my own. So yes, I have been a Christian by mouth for a long time, but have now stepped up and by the Grace of God am attempting to live in His Truth because I have decided to do so.

Thirdwoe Wrote:you ask many questions, but don't you have the answers to many of them that you believe are right already? It's like you want to teach something you believe is true, more than you want to learn what others say is true...which is not bad really, unless the teaching you bring is not true...then it's not good.

Teach something? Well I do feel convicted of certain things, yes, but can you point me to what lead you to that perception? To which questions you're referring to, please?

Thanks.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Seeker - 02-29-2012

Arkady Wrote:
Seeker Wrote:Are there telltale signs I should be looking for?
There are. Apart from the ones you've mentioned:
-if he properly realizes the fact that this present world is literally going to hell <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
-if he doesn't turn aside from the teaching and doctrines of the Church (Christ's, apostles', bishops', fathers',..)

examine his works if he has any:
-if he's defended the Orthodox faith against the unholy and impious
-if he's written anything on theology
-if he's written anything on prayer and penitence
-if he's written anything in which he interpretes the Holy Scriptures or\and the writtings of the Church fathers
-if he's written/preached any sermons/homilies
-if he's composed any prayers (that work)

Arkady. Russia.

[edit]Don't want this to come off as disrespectful.[edit]

This'll take some thinking and praying, for sure.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Arkady - 02-29-2012

Seeker Wrote:This'll take some thinking and praying, for sure.
Definitely.

Arkady.


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Thirdwoe - 03-01-2012

Quote:Teach something? Well I do feel convicted of certain things, yes, but can you point me to what lead you to that perception? To which questions you're referring to, please?

More in a general sense really. I'm not saying you aren't really seeking the Truth here though, or that you are not being honest or something like that...and it looks like you are somewhat where I am at with certain things, based on your last post there.

As to the topic you brought to the forum....To me, the Good News is this...it is that we have been Reconciled to God, by the Sacrifice of Christ for our redemption.

We have been healed of our fatal and terminal condition once and for all, by His loving and merciful actions.

We are to have faith in/Trust, what He has done for us, which we can't do for ourselves, in Him saving our souls, by paying the debt that we could not pay...and imputing His Righteousness unto us, who have none of ourselves.

We are now free from the law of sin and death, and walk in the newness of His Eternal Life, by the power of His indwelt Holy Spirit, working the will of God, His/our Father, in us. It's glorious to ponder.

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: The gospel of Jesus Christ: What is it? - Seeker - 03-01-2012

Thirdwoe Wrote:I'm not saying you arent really seeking the Truth here though, or that you are not being honest or something like that...

I didn't get that from your post. It just sounded like you thought that I was here to preach and that I already had the answers to the questions I was asking. I don't. I ask questions questions because I want answers. Nothing to over-analyze - it's really that simple.

Thirdwoe Wrote:As to the topic you brought to the forum....To me, the Good News is this...it is that we have been Reconciled to God, by the Sacrifice of Christ for our redemption.

We have been healed of our fatal and terminal condition once and for all, by His loving and merciful actions.

We are to have faith in/Trust, what He has done for us, which we can't do for ourslves, in Him saving our souls, by paying the debt that we could not pay...and imputing His Righteousness unto us, who have none of ourselves.

We are now free from the law if sin and death, and walk in the newness of His Eternal Life, by the power of His indwelt Holy Spirit, working the will of God, His/our Father, in us. It's glorious to ponder.

Blessings,
Chuck

Thanks, Chuck. I'll go over what you guys said and try to make sense of it all. I appreciate the help. Have a good one.