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Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Printable Version

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Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Bradley - 12-27-2010

Shlama,

I have a question for one of the Aramaic scholars on this site, but first let me say "thank you" for this forum as this is my very first post! My question has to do with English translations of Gilyahna 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 wherein "seven spirits" appear instead of "seven-fold spirit." Everything I know is pointing to a 'sevenfold' translation, but I am not sure if the error occurred in redactions from Greek to English or from Aramaic to Greek to English. I know that the Septuagint used "hepta" for both seven and sevenfold, but I'm wondering if it would be the same in Aramaic. My question to Aramaic linguists would be: What is the difference between "seven" versus "sevenfold" in Peshitta? Are they two separate words, or the same word?

Much appreciation,
Bradley


Re: Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Stephen Silver - 12-27-2010

Bradley Wrote:Shlama,

I have a question for one of the Aramaic scholars on this site, but first let me say "thank you" for this forum as this is my very first post! My question has to do with English translations of Gilyahna 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 wherein "seven spirits" appear instead of "seven-fold spirit." Everything I know is pointing to a 'sevenfold' translation, but I am not sure if the error occurred in redactions from Greek to English or from Aramaic to Greek to English. I know that the Septuagint used "hepta" for both seven and sevenfold, but I'm wondering if it would be the same in Aramaic. My question to Aramaic linguists would be: What is the difference between "seven" versus "sevenfold" in Peshitta? Are they two separate words, or the same word?

Much appreciation,
Bradley

Shlama Akhi Bradley:
There is no definitive proof that the Aramaic of Gilyana (Book of Revelation) has an Aramaic original. There are onlt remnants of Aramaic ideas and idioms which were translated from Aramaic into Greek. The two main manuscripts are the Harklean and some would say the Philoxinian is the second most widely used translation. The Harklean (616 A.D.)) is believed by some scholars to be a revision of the Philoxinian (508 A.D.)

It is because the Aramaic Peshitta does not contain II Peter, II John, III John, Jude and Revelation, that any original in Aramaic is believed to be irretrievably lost. So authoritatively there is no way to be difinitive about any special words or phrased. However many do have a Semitic bent.

The Crawford Codex (called Philoxinian) reads "shaba" which means 7. In translation this would be rendered seven spirits. Seven fold is an English phrase which means the same as seven, in my honest opinion. So both "seven" and "seven-fold are correct readings. Now, contextually, and in this case I don't see any internal contradiction, however another passage in the Aramaic Peshitta or the Old Testament Aurayta would have to follow its own contextual use. This means that if there is contextually a difference shown between seven and seven-fold the correct reading follows the local context. Again, this brings to mind semitic hermeneutics and the various rules by which the Word of God is read correctly.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->


Re: Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Bradley - 12-28-2010

Thank you Stephen,

when you say "sevenfold is an English word" that answers my question perfectly, and makes sense. I didn't know it was said the same way in Aramaic, which is what I really needed to know. It proves the point I'm trying to make in my thesis I'm writing. Much appreciate the quick response!


Re: Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Stephen Silver - 12-29-2010

Bradley Wrote:Thank you Stephen,

when you say "sevenfold is an English word" that answers my question perfectly, and makes sense. I didn't know it was said the same way in Aramaic, which is what I really needed to know. It proves the point I'm trying to make in my thesis I'm writing. Much appreciate the quick response!

Shlama Bradley:
What point are you trying to bring across in your thesis. I want to be sure we are on the same page, rather than taking my words and running with them. What is the context of your thesis? How are you elaborating on "seven"/seven-fold"

Perhaps you should take a look at the Peshitta Page at Dukhrana or the Aramaic/English Lexicon on this site to groung your findings. All the best.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
dukhrana Biblical Research
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->


Re: Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Jerry - 12-29-2010

For what its worth, the Peshitta has kind of an odd way of using numbers. In Matthew 18:22 for instance, it reads as:

... Not saying I-am to-thee until to-seven, but until to-seventy times seven seven.

I can't say for sure, but I think the double word "seven seven" is the English equivalent of "seven squared", which to me is 7 by 7, or 49. So in this verse, I suspect the actual number is 70 times 7 by 7 = 3,430. If anyone could confirm that, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

And for the numbers referenced in the book of Revelations, it appears to me as just "seven" (shba').


Re: Seven or Sevenfold? Question for an Aramaic scholar - Bradley - 12-30-2010

Shlama Stephen and Jerry,

I'm writing on the apocalypses. I knew there was no evidence for an original Aramaic Revelation, but I suspect one due to Yochanan Shlika's signature all over the text. When the translation of "seven spirits" occurs in 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6, it is popularly assumed seven spirits due to the seven lamps, seven stars, . However, this is a menorah, and it is really one lampstand with seven lamps that is being seen, which is a drash from Exodus 25:37, 40:4, Zechariah 4, etc. In Zechariah 4:6, it is one Spirit, but with seven eyes which go to and fro the earth (Zech 4:10). I am trying to find the missing link between how it was understood at first to be a seven-fold menorah to becoming "seven spirits". If 'sevenfold' is strictly an English word, that would be an explanation, and the error would point to a Greek redaction of the missing Aramaic original. Similar to the point you made, the Septuagint translates Genesis 4:24 only with the Greek hepta ("Cain shall be avenged sevenfold" is the translation); which can mean either seven or sevenfold. So far, it looks like its a translational problem, but I'm no linguist, and can't prove it. Didn't mean to frighten you, I'm not going to use you as a source or anything. I'm thinking of just leaving the issue due to relevance in the grand scheme of things. Even if I leave it "seven spirits" I can easily show Yochanan's vision as a menorah with seven lamps using good old-fashioned midrash, without making it a linguistic issue. Its not like it changes who the Rukha d'Qudsha is anyway! To tell you the truth though, it would be nice to have an answer to the laughing icon on the Skeptic's Annotated Bible commentary regarding "seven spirits of God": <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/3.html">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/3.html</a><!-- m --> It was for this reason I started writing my commentary, and had a question on 'sevenfold' to begin with.
Again though, appreciate all of your insights!