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Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Printable Version

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Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-25-2011

Konway,

According to the Scriptures, when is the Feast of Firstfruits to take place?

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-25-2011

I know Konway does not like to read anything but what is written in the Scripture...But I don't think that way, although I do believe that The Scripture is the final authority on all matters to which it deals.

And so...I am going to add this ancient document to the discussion, because it speaks to the matter...and is something that was taught to the early Christians regarding this subject we are discussing. This document is called "The Didascalia", which claims to be of Apostolic authority and origin from about the year 50 A.D. But could be from about the year 230 A.D. instead....and it is of Eastern origin.

If this information below in the quotes are true...then it brings the two sides together and takes away the contention, showing that both sides can be true.

From Chapter Twenty One: It reads.

"For while He was yet with us before He suffered, as we were eating the Passover with Him, He said to us: To-day, in this night, one of you will betray me.

And we said unto Him, each one of us: Is it I, Lord? And he answered and said to us: He that putteth forth his hand with me into the dish.

And Judas Iscariot, who was one of us, rose up and went his way to betray Him.

Then our Lord said to us: Verily I say unto you, a little while and ye will leave me; for it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the lambs of his flock shall be scattered.

And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and betrayed our Lord Jesus.

Now this was done on the fourth day of the week. (Tuesday sundown-Wednesday sundown)

For when we had eaten the Passover on the third day of the week at even, (Tuesday at sundown) we went forth to the Mount of Olives; and in the night they seized our Lord Jesus. (Tuesday night)

And the next day, which was the fourth of the week, (Wednesday) He remained in ward in the house of Caiaphas the high priest.

And on the same day (Wednesday) the chiefs of the people were assembled and took counsel against Him.

And on the next day again, which was the fifth of the week, (Thursday) they brought Him to Pilate the governor.

And He remained again in ward with Pilate the night after the fifth day of the week. (Thursday night)

But when it drew on (towards day) on the Friday, they accused him much before Pilate; and they could show nothing that was true, but gave false witness against Him.

And they asked Him of Pilate to be put to death; and they crucified Him on the same Friday.

He suffered, then, at the sixth hour on Friday. And these hours wherein our Lord was crucified were reckoned a day.

And afterwards, again, there was darkness for three hours; and it was reckoned a night.

And again, from the ninth hour until evening, three hours, (reckoned) a day.

And afterwards again, the night of the Sabbath of the Passion.

And again the day of the Sabbath; and then three hours of the night after the Sabbath, wherein our Lord slept.

And that was fulfilled which He said: ?The Son of man must pass three days and three nights in the heart of the earth?, as it is written in the Gospel.

And again it is written in David: ?Behold, thou hast set my days in measure?. Now because those days and nights came short, it was so written.

In the night, (Saturday Night) therefore, when the first day (Sunday) of the week drew on, He appeared to Mary Magdalene and to Mary the daughter of James, and in the morning of the first day (Sunday) of the week He went in to (the house of) Levi; and then He appeared also to us ourselves."


NOTE: Further down the document in the same Chapter 21...concerning the timing of the Passover Feast that year...it reads:

"But by reason of the multitudes of all the people, from every city and from all the villages, who were coming up to the temple to keep the Passover in Jerusalem, the priests and elders took counsel and commanded and appointed that they should keep the festival straightway, that they might seize Him without disturbance.

For the inhabitants of Jerusalem were engaged with the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover; and moreover, all the people that were without were not yet come, for they had deceived them as to the days.

That they might be convicted before God of erring utterly in all things, therefore they anticipated (predicted) the Passover (was to be in) three days, (telling them to keep the Feast on Tuesday evening till Wednesday evening, ahead of the real Passover of that Friday Evening till Saturday Evening) and kept it on the eleventh of the moon, on the third day of the week. (Tuesday Evening to Wednesday Evening, instead of Friday Evening to Saturday Evening.)

For they said: 'Because the whole people is gone astray after Him, now that we have an occasion let us seize Him; and then, when all the people are come, let us put Him to death before all, that this may be known openly, and all the people may turn back from after Him.'

And so, in the night, (Tuesday Evening) when the fourth day (Wednesday) of the week drew on, Judas betrayed our Lord to them.

But they made the payment to Judas on the tenth of the month (Monday Evening to Tuesday Evening), on the second day of the week; wherefore they were accounted by God as though on the second day of the week they had seized Him, because on the second of the week they had taken counsel to seize Him and put Him to death; and they accomplished their malice on the (following) Friday: as Moses had said concerning the Passover, thus: It shall be kept by you from the tenth until the fourteenth: and then all Israel shall sacrifice the passover. (See Exodus 12.3-6)

Therefore you shall fast in the days of the Pascha from the tenth, which is the second day of the week (Tuesday); and you shall sustain yourselves with bread and salt and water only, at the ninth hour, until the fifth day of the week. (Friday)

But on the Friday and on the Sabbath, fast wholly, and taste nothing.

You shall come together and watch and keep vigil all the night with prayers and intercessions, and with reading of the Prophets, and with the Gospel and with Psalms, with fear and trembling and with earnest supplication, until the third hour in the night after the Sabbath; (9PM) and then break your fasts.

For thus did we also fast, when our Lord suffered, for a testimony of the three days; and we were keeping vigil and praying and interceding for the destruction of the People, because that they erred and confessed not our Saviour.

So do you also pray, that the Lord may not remember their guilt against them unto the end for the guile which they used against our Lord, but may grant them a place of repentance and conversion, and forgiveness of their wickedness.

For he who was a heathen and of a foreign people, Pilate the judge, did not consent to their deeds of wickedness, but took water and washed his hands, and said: I am innocent of the blood of this man.

But the People answered and said: His blood be upon us, and upon our children; and Herod commanded that He should be crucified; and our Lord suffered for us on the Friday.

.


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - konway87 - 07-25-2011

Let me try to answer questions step by step.

1) According to the Scriptures, when is the Feast of Firstfruits to take place?

"From what I know of", Feast of First Fruits took place the day after the beginning of First regular Sabbath

??From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the LORD." (Leviticus 23:15-16).

I want to point out couple of errors in Didascalia Chapter 21.

1) "In the night, (Saturday Night) therefore, when the first day (Sunday) of the week drew on, He appeared to Mary Magdalene and to Mary the daughter of James, and in the morning of the first day (Sunday) of the week He went in to (the house of) Levi; and then He appeared also to us ourselves."

Gospels never mention that Jesus appeared to Mary the daughter of James. Gospels also never mention that James had a daughter named Mary. But Gospels mention about Mary who is the mother of James and Joses.

Mark 15:40 - "And there were women looking on, from a distance, Mary Magdalena, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome." These were the women who were standing next to Jesus when he was crucified.

Few verses later, we read this (Mark 15:47) - "And Mary Magdalena and Mary [the mother] of Joses saw where he was laid."

Mark 16:1 - "And when the sabbath had passed, Mary Magdalena, and Mary [the mother] of James, and Salome, bought aromatics, that they might come and anoint him."

But you might say the mother is in parenthesis/brackets. So let me take Luke for confirmation - Luke 24:9-10 "And they returned from the sepulchre, and related all these things to the eleven, and to the rest. Now they were Mary Magdalena, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the others with them, who related these things to the Legates."

2) "Herod commanded that He should be crucified; and our Lord suffered for us on the Friday."

Pilate sending Jesus to Herod is mentioned in Luke 23:7-12. In Luke's Gospel, we see that Herod never "commands" that Jesus should be crucified.

3) And Didascalia mentions that Crucifixion happened on a Friday and Jesus resurrected on a Sunday.

This disagrees with certain verses in Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Luke, and Gospel of John.

I wrote this before. But I have to write this again.

Mark 16:1 clearly shows that Women bought aromatics after the Sabbath. And Luke 23:50-56 mentions that Women rested on the sabbath after they prepared perfumes and aromatics. And John 19:31 points out that the Sabbath after the Crucifixion of Jesus was a High/Great Sabbath. Not a regular/weekly Sabbath.

4) Gospels never says that Jesus went into the house of Levi in the morning of the first day (Sunday) of the week.

There are more confusions in this document called Didascalia. But I will stop here for now.


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-25-2011

Knoway,

You said: "From what I know of, Feast of First Fruits took place the day after the beginning of First regular Sabbath"

And so...what day of the week was the Feast of First Fruits during the week which we are discussing.

As to the information in the Didascalia...As to its accuracy and authenticity, it is not considered to be Holy Scripture, and certainly was not transmited through the centuries with the same care as Holy Scripture.

I have checked the Greek Manuscripts, the Latin Vulgate, and the Coptic Texts for Luke 24:10...and none of them have "the mother of" there... they all have simply "Mary of James". The Peshitta shows "mother of" there...and I would like to know what all the Peshitta texts read for that verse to see if there are any variants, that may lack "mother of".

I have noted the way it seems to be with you...that if you believe one thing is not right in a document, then the whole document is thus not right. Which, if true, is not good.

I'll look at the other points you make, where you found fault with the statements in the document. And await your answer in the more important matter of what day of the week that the Feast of First Fruits was during the week of our Master's sacrifice, burial, and resurrection on the 3rd day.

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - konway87 - 07-25-2011

I don't think you read my post properly. I posted Luke 24:9-10 before. In the beginning, I told you that I used Peshitta manuscript (Murdock Translation). I don't care for the corrupt Greek or Latin Vulgate.

Luke 24:9-10 "And they returned from the sepulchre, and related all these things to the eleven, and to the rest. Now they were Mary Magdalena, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the others with them, who related these things to the Legates."

I explained some of the confusions and you didn't even read them properly. I didn't write one. But four. I even posted the link to Murdock's Translation.

So I am not going to write them anymore, because I am tired of it.

Other than Murdock, check Paul Younan's Interlinear Translation or even Lamsa for Luke 24:9-10. That's all I am going to write. Goodbye.


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-25-2011

And thus you make your exit without saying upon what day the Feast of Firstfruits fell on that week....

I'll tell you...But you already know I think, but just don't want to say???

It was on the 1st day of the Week...Sunday. After the weekly Sabbath was over.

That is when The Messiah rose from the dead. Not before the weekly Sabbath was over...since that was not the Feast of Firstfruits. And that is the day when The Messiah rose from the dead.

This fact alone destroys the idea that you are tring so hard to make the Scriptures work for a Wednesday Crucifixtion, as well as God in the Holy Scriptures telling us that it was upon the 3rd Day that The Messiah rose from the dead...not the 4th Day.

You have:

Wednesday night to Thurdsay night =Day One
Thurdsay night to Friday night = Day Two
Friday night to Saturday night = Day Three

BUT... because The Feast of First-Fruits does not land on the Sabbath day there that week...then it can't be the 3rd Day since The Messiah was Crucified...only a Thursday or a Friday will work for that fact...and if it was a full 72 hours...only a Thursday Crucifixtion will work with EVERYTHING that is written in the Holy Scriptures.

The 3rd Day:

"Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;" Acts 10:40

The First-Fruits:

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." 1 Corinthians 15:20

"But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Corinthians 15:23


Brother Konway, you made a valiant effort to prove that the Crucifiction took place on a Wednesday and the Resurrection took place on the next Saturday afternoon...but both the Scriptures and the testimony of many hundreds of sources since the 1st century does not agree with your idea.

Unless you can find a way to make the Feast of First-Fruits be on the regular weekly Sabbath Day, which you teach is the Day on which The Messiah was raised...then you have a big problem, beacuse The Messiah was raised upon the Feast of First-Fruits.

Thursday is much more viable an option if a Friday Crucifixtion is not true.

Again...thanks for your effort. I was happy to consider your teaching, though as you can see, not ALL The Scriptures agree with it.

Blessings,
Chuck

..


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-25-2011

Correcting evidence:

Mark 15:40 shows in the Peshitta, the Greek, the Latin, and the Coptic texts...that this Mary is indeed said to be "The Mother" of James and Joses...so the verse in Luke 24:10 is correct in the Peshitta...though missing "the Mother" in the Greek, the Latin, and the Coptic texts...And thus the Didascalia would be in error when it says that this Mary was "the Daughter" of James...

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Alan G77 - 07-26-2011

From what I can see by reading from Mark 15 through to 16, Jesus was crucified on the "preparation" day, which is the day before the sabbath true? And then the women rested on the sabbath and came to the tomb on the first day of the week in the morning.

I can't ascertain how we can conclude a Wednesday from this text alone?


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 07-26-2011

Some contend that the "preparation" could also mean the day before an annual Feast Day Sabbath, which was to be treated like a normal Sabbath...which could fall on a day other than the weekly Sabbath.

It may be true, I'm not certain. I have heard some say that it always meant a Friday, or the day before the weekly Sabbath (Thursday sundown to Friday sundown)

What Knoway is trying to say is that there was a day in between the Annual Feast Day Sabbath (1st Day of the Passover Feast)...and the weekly regular 7th Day Sabbath....but if so, what he maintains took place makes the Resurection take place before the Sabbath is concluded...and thus Messiah would not have risen upon the Feast of First-Fruits...which the Sciptures indicate...and because He did, a Wednesday Crucifixtion makes His Ressurection be on the 4th Day...which goes against the Scripture.

He is contending that there has to be a day in between for the Women to make the spices...but there is time for this...because they had spices before the Crucifixtion...then rested on the Sabbath (mabye two Sabbath's back to back) then after sundown on Saturday...they had time to get more spices and prepare them with the other batch they had been working on before...then they headed to the Tomb early on Sunday morning before sunrise.

Blessings,
Chuck


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Sarah - 02-18-2013

konway87 Wrote:I was wondering if "the last day" was referring to the last day of the week. What do you think about it, everyone?
Interesting Konway!


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Sarah - 03-02-2013

Thirdwoe Wrote:Some contend that the "preparation" could also mean the day before an annual Feast Day Sabbath, which was to be treated like a normal Sabbath...which could fall on a day other than the weekly Sabbath.

It may be true, I'm not certain. I have heard some say that it always meant a Friday, or the day before the weekly Sabbath (Thursday sundown to Friday sundown)

What Knoway is trying to say is that there was a day in between the Annual Feast Day Sabbath (1st Day of the Passover Feast)...and the weekly regular 7th Day Sabbath....but if so, what he maintains took place makes the Resurection take place before the Sabbath is concluded...and thus Messiah would not have risen upon the Feast of First-Fruits...which the Sciptures indicate...and because He did, a Wednesday Crucifixtion makes His Ressurection be on the 4th Day...which goes against the Scripture. . . .
Blessings,
Chuck

hello brother,
When I your post and go to thinking: I wonder if Scripture actually says anywhere that Yeshua had to rise on the day of the wave offering/firstfruits or if it just says that he presented Himself to the Father that day?

You don't, by chance know when this wave offering harvested in Israel? I heard it is harvested just at the close of the Sabbath but part of the cerimony the priest goes through involves inquiring if it is still the Sabbath? I'd love to know if anyone can attest to that?

I know that according to Lev and Deut that this wave offering was to occur the day after the Sabbath, when the sickle is put to the grain.

I love to explore the possiblilities. And while I have definite inclinations, I tend not to be dogmatic with others about such since we are all just putting the pieces together as best we can. This theory satisfies questions that no other theory is able to answer in that it is the only theory that puts him in the grave three full days and three full nights, and shows him rising ON/IN the third day from when he was buried, but AFTER the third day from when he was killed. Appologetically, I find it valuable to have at hand logical answers that are able to dispell doubts for those who wonder how it COULD HAVE been that Yeshua fulfilled this prophecy and all he spoke of concening his death and ressurection.

At one point, I drew up charts that map out this theory and a couple others. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to e-mail them.


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Thirdwoe - 03-02-2013

I'd like to see it, Sarah...I'll PM you my email.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - Sarah - 03-28-2013

konway87 Wrote:I thought I should post some interesting information about Christianity in Kerala. Unlike Catholics, Many christians in other denominations still use Jewish dietary laws. I am one of them.

I am one of them too!


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - ClaudeA - 05-15-2013

Intriguing discussion!

However, since the pagan Vatican imposed its hatred for Judaism on brow-beaten Judaism, forcing on pain of death the substitution of pagan Gregorian calendar-keeping to replace the ancient Hebrew calendar-keeping that solely based Shabbats on moon cycles, the true Shabbat and feast days observed now have no relevance to Y'suah's human flesh manifestation time.

Here is a place with much of this history . . .

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://whenisthesabbath.com/saturday-sunday-neither.htm">http://whenisthesabbath.com/saturday-sunday-neither.htm</a><!-- m -->


Just today Nehemiah Gordon posted the latest New Moon citing that set the current month - on a Saturday - which is the day BEFORE the first Shabbat of the month, the 2nd day of every lunar month, using Hebrew calendar shabbat-keeping. This makes every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29 day of every Lunar month a Shabbat.

Here is Nehemia's link . . .

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://abluethread.com/2013/05/13/rabbaniteskaraitesmoonsightings/">http://abluethread.com/2013/05/13/rabba ... sightings/</a><!-- m -->

Nehemia Gordon & Keith Johnson have also been in friendly sparring about the day of Y'suah's resurrection. Here's some relative details . . .

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.truth2u.org/2013/05/nehemia-gordon-keith-johnson-solving-the-sign-of-jonah-puzzle.html">http://www.truth2u.org/2013/05/nehemia- ... uzzle.html</a><!-- m -->


With care, one learns that all is not what pagan masters of this global regime of hatred for Truth would have all believe. Truly these heathen have changed times and seasons to fit the agenda of replacement theology, - ergo, Satan as The Deity.

Claude


Re: Good Wednesday or Good Friday? - carlosmendoza - 05-19-2013

ClaudeA Wrote:Here is a place with much of this history . . .

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://whenisthesabbath.com/saturday-sunday-neither.htm">http://whenisthesabbath.com/saturday-sunday-neither.htm</a><!-- m -->

I don't want to enter in calendar discussions but the Lunar Sabbath is a false teaching and has never been observe in Israel. One thing is the New Moon and other thing is the Sabbath. This is really clear in the Scriptures. Andrew Gabriel Roth, member of this forum wrote about the myth of the Lunar Sabbath:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.therefinersfire.org/lunar_sabbath_myth.htm">http://www.therefinersfire.org/lunar_sabbath_myth.htm</a><!-- m -->

By the way the Karaites have origins in the Muslim thinking and the only group that is linked to them are the Sadducees that were Hellenized Jews. So, Why their calendar and their ideas are so famous in many Messianic circles? It is just because they draw Yeshua as a Karaite to gain popularity and influence over Rabbinic Judaism.