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Daughter Of A Voice - Printable Version

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Daughter Of A Voice - Burning one - 12-24-2008

1st Timothy 6:20
Oh Timotheus, take heed of that thing which has been committed to you, and flee from the daughters of voices of vanities, and from the principles of false knowledge.

[font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0lq tnb[/font] B???nath qalee is the Aramaic phrase of the bolded and underlined.

I???m curious to know if b???nath qalee is analogous to the Hebrew phrase bat qol? It appears to be, but I'd like the view of anyone better versed in Semiticisms than I am. If so, would it possibly be legitimate to approach this passage in light of the normal Hebraic perspective of a bat qol/voice from heaven?


Chayim b???Moshiach,
Jeremy


Re: Daughter Voice - Stephen Silver - 12-24-2008

Shlama Akhi Jeremy:
I was wondering when someone would stumble upon [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0lq tnb[/font] "b'nat koli". Check out the importance of this phrase in Acts 12:22.

John Wesley Etheridge
Acts 12:22 But all the people exclaimed, and said, These are the words (Benoth kolee, "voices.") of a god, and not of a man.

Note: Etheridge recognised the title [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0lq tnb[/font] in the Peshitta text he used in 1848 and noted it at the end of the paragraph.

It's the same as in I Timothy 6:20. However in I Timothy 6:20 the word ser??ktha distinguishes the difference.
1Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, watch over that which is confided to thee, and fly from vain words, [B'noth kolee ser??ktho, vain voices.] and the turnings of false knowledge.

Talmud - Masekhta - Pesachim 94a, 94b
For R. Johanan b. Zakkai said: What answer did the Bath Kol give that wicked man (Nebuchadnezzar) when he asserted, ???I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High???? A Bath Kol came forth and rebuked him: ???Thou wicked man, son of a wicked man, descendant of the wicked *Nimrod, who incited the whole world to rebel *himrid against Me during his reign!

* This is a play on the name Nimrod, deriving it from [font="Levistam (V1.1)"]drm[/font] marad, to rebel, revolt.

In the context B'nat Koli could be considered an equivalent expression for the Holy Spirit, but since it is used twice in the Peshitta New Testament negatively, I rather think that it is a warning to take care not to attribute the Voice of the Holy Spirit incorrectly as b'nat koli "daughter voice", as in the case of Herod and the warning to Timothy. This flies in the face of the Talmudic reading of the Gamara in Masekhta - Pesachim 94a, 94b, as in other places where the bath kol sides with Hillel against Shammai. This is somewhat controvercial and I hope no one is offended by my elaboration on this sensitive subject.

Shlama,
Stephen
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Re: Daughter Of A Voice - Burning one - 12-24-2008

Shlama akhi Stephen,

thank you for the information from the Talmud. what a clever word-play! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

I had actually looked at Acts 12:22 also, but I wasn't sure if it could be taken to mean something different than the normal translations found in 1st Timothy 6:20. Since ser??ktho means "emptinesses/vanities," the thought crossed my mind that perhaps it could be interpreted with the conveyed idea of "false messages from heaven." Or is it best left as the more common "vain words?"


Thanks again for your input!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy


Re: Daughter Of A Voice - Burning one - 12-24-2008

oops! I posted my reply before seeing the amendment to your post. Thanks for clarifying. no offense in my camp by your words.

Thanks again! Always helpful!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy


Re: Daughter Of A Voice - Stephen Silver - 12-24-2008

Shlama Akhi Jeremy:
It seems that we are both burning the midnight oil. It's 12:15 A.M. by my clock.

I've often pondered the use of bat kol in the Talmud or b'nat koli in the Peshitta New Testament. I was studying the connection between Elijah and John the Baptist, since Yeshua said that John came in the spirit and power of Elijah. Elijah was called "tishbi" and the root of this word is "shuv" which means repent or turn. (I Kings 17:1) John the Baptist called the people of his generation to repentance and also is referred to by Yeshua as the messenger who prepares the way of the LORD. (Malachi 34:1, Matthew 11:14) It was Elijah that heard kol d'mama daka or still small voice in Horeb/Sinai. (I Kings 19:12) This was without a doubt the Voice of the Ruakh Hakodesh the Voice of Elohim. It was John the Baptist that witnessed the Voice from Heaven and the Holy Spirit as a dove which was manifest at Yeshua's immersion in the Jordan river. In retrospect I'm wondering if the Rabbis of the Great Synagogue didn't use this title "bat kol" as a reference to "hearing from heaven" after the closing of the written Prophets (400 years of silence since the last prophets). That would be Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Yeshua said, "All the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until John" (Matthew 11:13) So, is Yeshua correcting the Rabbis of the Great Synagogue who use the title bat kol, when Yeshua mentions Elijah in the next verse. "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come." (Matthew 11:14)
It seems to me that the Rabbinical/Talmudic understanding of the Ruakh HaKodesh was more humanly manifested as in cases of halakhic decisions between Hillel and Shammai where the bat kol is invoked. Hence their difficulty in accepting the virgin birth and the WORD (miltha) made manifest in the flesh as the Son of Alaha. (John 1:1-17) So it also would appear that both Luke (Acts 12:22) and Paul (I Timothy 6:20) are setting the record straight by noting the difference between the b'nat koli (human understanding that is falsely attributed to Alaha) vis-a-vis the revelation that comes from the Rukha d'Kadusha, "the Spirit of Truth will lead you into All Truth." (John 16:13)
One final note is that the Apostle Paul was in Horeb/Sinai where Moses received the Torah commandments and also where Elijah stood when he ran from Jezebel. Perhaps it was here that our LORD spoke also to Paul concerning this very subtle difference between the Voice of the Holy Spirit vis-a-vis the subtle but misleading voice of the deceiver of humanity. Of all of the Apostles, Paul understood the mindset of the Pharisees with unparalleled clarity. Perhaps the use and invocation of this title, b'nat koli, is symbolic of the sticking point between Yeshua and the Apostles vis-a-vis the Pharisees over the important topic of heavenly authority and Messianic revelation all through the first century.

Shlama,
Stephen
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Re: Daughter Of A Voice - Burning one - 12-25-2008

Shlama akhi Stephen,

i'm burning more and more midnight oil than ever -- my firstborn son is a year old today and so much attention needs to go toward him that my only real free time is after the sun/son goes down.

thanks for your extended thoughts. you've obviously put alot of time into this. i can see how your perspective could very well have been the case. when you start putting the pieces together from across the board it does seem to imply what you're proposing. this has been very helpful -- when i stumbled across that phrase in Timothy it really surprised me.
also, it is instances of this type in the Peshitta that i think could be utilized in discussions with Rabbinical Jewish believers that might end up serving to show them just how "Semitic" of a document the New Testament really is when you step away from the glorified Greek texts and back to the Aramaic. if they could see this difference between a b'nath qalee and the leading of the Rukha d'Qadusha, and how the latter is obviously to be preferred over the former, you would think it would be a helpful step towards redemption for them.

it is these types of Semitic subtleties of the Peshitta which have value on more than one level: primacy advocate in showing the use of Aramaic both in Luqa and Timothy, as well as for possible evangelical tools to those familiar with such Semitic phrases.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy