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Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - yaaqub - 01-09-2008

Shlama,

I have a question that might sound stupid, it deals with linguistic or pronunciation changes from Hebrew to Aramaic over a period of time. What I mean is, there are certain words, for example, in Hebrew and Aramaic versions of Daniel that, while they mean the same thing, are spelled slightly different from each other. For example, Hebrew Daniel uses the word "anah" (pronoun, "I") while the Aramaic has "ani" (see Daniel 4:1)

Please indulge me here for a moment... Was there a change sometime in the ending of certain words that originally ended in "ah" to "os"? If so, about when did do you believe this occured?

Also, within the same line of thought, we know the Estrangela script is very ancient. Just how far back does it go? I can't seem to find any scholarly information on this particular script. I have talked to others who say the Aramaic Scriptures were not originally written with the Estrangela script but with something else, and that the Estrangela script, while ancient, is still not the original that was used in composing the Peshitta. They contend that when the Church of the East took over the Peshitta and began making copies for their churches, that they used the Estrangela script, and that the originals (in whatever script they were written in) no longer exist.

Thanks for putting up with my elementary questions on this topic. The reason I ask these questions is because I have seen no clear answer from anyone as of to date. This would help in some of my research as well. Thank you.

Ya'aqub


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - Paul Younan - 01-09-2008

yaaqub Wrote:Shlama,

I have a question that might sound stupid, it deals with linguistic or pronunciation changes from Hebrew to Aramaic over a period of time. What I mean is, there are certain words, for example, in Hebrew and Aramaic versions of Daniel that, while they mean the same thing, are spelled slightly different from each other. For example, Hebrew Daniel uses the word "anah" (pronoun, "I") while the Aramaic has "ani" (see Daniel 4:1)

I think it's the other way around, no? "Ani" is Hebrew and "Ana" is Aramaic (and Arabic)?

yaaqub Wrote:Please indulge me here for a moment... Was there a change sometime in the ending of certain words that originally ended in "ah" to "os"? If so, about when did do you believe this occured?

That's hard to pinpoint because so many factors get involved. Just a few observations:

Even within the same language group, dialects pop up based mostly on geography (think of the Sephardic vs. Ashkenazic pronunciations..."Shabbat", "Shabbos" etc.). In Assyrian circles, those from Iran tend to pronounce the Waw character like a "V" instead of the Iraqi pronunciation of "W".

Aside from Geography, a lot of differences occur due to tribal affiliations. For instance, I will say "Beth" when saying "house", but Karl who is from the Tyari tribe will say "Beyt" - because in my tribe we almost always pronounce the Taw character like a "Th".

Education is another major factor. If a nation is, for example, scattered around the world and without a central language authority to standardize the speech....without any major educational institutions....major divergences tend to occur over time.

Lastly, another major factor is the influence of neighbors whose language may be foreign.

I guess like everything else language evolves over time and space.

yaaqub Wrote:Also, within the same line of thought, we know the Estrangela script is very ancient. Just how far back does it go? I can't seem to find any scholarly information on this particular script.

I think the earliest inscription is from the tomb of Queen Helena in Jerusalem, around 56 A.D. Which takes Estrangela back at least into the 1st century BC. (if royalty had their tombs inscribed with it)

Estrangela evolved from the same "Ashuri" script used in Hatra that the modern Hebrew script evolved from (why the letters look so similiar)

yaaqub Wrote:I have talked to others who say the Aramaic Scriptures were not originally written with the Estrangela script but with something else, and that the Estrangela script, while ancient, is still not the original that was used in composing the Peshitta. They contend that when the Church of the East took over the Peshitta and began making copies for their churches, that they used the Estrangela script, and that the originals (in whatever script they were written in) no longer exist.

That's true - I've actually been told by a number of priests that Estrangela came later, like Swadaya that we use today with vowel points....or the Serto of the Jacobites


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - yaaqub - 01-09-2008

Shlama Akhi,

Thank you very much for your detailed and enlightening reply.

This helps very much and confirms some research I am doing among other things.


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - yaaqub - 01-09-2008

Shlama,

This would likely account for the differences cataloged by my great grandfather in certain words and phrases compared to the Aramaic Peshitta and the manuscripts that he used for his codex which he claimed to be "older than the current holy text" (I can not substantiate this claim as of yet). Some of these differences might show a change that occurred between the original autographs (?) with the endings of certain words. He cataloged words that the manuscript he used showed endings with the "ah" sound which now appear in the Estrangela with the "os" sound. I jumped on this as soon as I saw Dave Bauscher's post concerning Codex W and those Aramaic seals/signatures. It appears that the same script used in those seals is the same script copied by my grandfather comparing three different scripts, 1)possibly Herodian, 2)Estrangela and 3)a modern Hebrew script.

I began comparing the use of the word for "Athena" in the Aramaic Peshitta and my great grandfather's codex after Dave posted about Codex W. This is where I found the difference between "ah" and "os". This could simply be a minor linguistic difference as the Aramaic language continued to develop or as it was used among certain Assyrian tribes and CoE scribes. Just a thought. I'm running on a lot of theory because I haven't had a lot of time yet to explore all of the manuscripts and journals I have at my disposal. Sometimes I'm inclined to think that this particular codex is a recension rather than a copy of anything older than the Estrangela as my great grandfather could have been mistaken or he could have been mislead by the person who permitted him to copy the manuscript in which he claimed was older.

Ya'aqub


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - yaaqub - 01-10-2008

Shlama,

I'm starting to be inclined to think that the codex I have could reflect a dialect more than anything else.

Another example is with the Aramaic word for "servant". As it's used in the Eastern Aramaic text the word is "shamshanah" [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hn$m$[/font], whereas my great grandfather's codex is "shumshanah" [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hn$mw$[/font] in many instances referring to almost any type of servant.

And another one... the word for "repentance". The E. Aramaic, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwbyt[/font] (teyabuta), and the codex, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fbwyt[/font] (teyubta).

I'm not sure if these fonts are going to come through properly

Ya'aqub


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - Paul Younan - 01-10-2008

yaaqub Wrote:And another one... the word for "repentance". The E. Aramaic, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwbyt[/font] (teyabuta), and the codex, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fbwyt[/font] (teyubta).

The Taybutha seems to be a transposition of letters (very common scribal error)...sometimes that leads to a real word with a different reading altogether, imagine in the olden days with only consonants. Oh vey!

The Shamshana sounds like it could be a dialect thing with a different vowel....


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - Karl - 01-12-2008

The letter-switching could be because of a recognized linguistic phenomenon called "metathesis." It doesn't just happen to Aramaic. There are some more examples of this happening in modern dialects (at least my dialect).

In these examples, "l" switches position with "dh:"
"key:" qleedha -> qdheela
"ice:" gleedha -> gdheela

I've also noticed many examples of vowel shifts from the old language to the new. Again, this applies to all languages and dialects.

In these examples, "u" shifts into "i:"
"dirt:" shukhta -> shikhta
"knee:" burka -> birka
"star:" kukhwa -> kikhwa

Paul Younan Wrote:Aside from Geography, a lot of differences occur due to tribal affiliations. For instance, I will say "Beth" when saying "house", but Karl who is from the Tyari tribe will say "Beyt" - because in my tribe we almost always pronounce the Taw character like a "Th".

I think you have the Tyaraye confused with another tribe, khonee. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> I too say "beth(a)" for "house," but you're right: there are other tribes that say "bayt(a)." I'm told we're famous for our "th" sound.


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - abudar2000 - 01-19-2008

shlom lokh oH yaaqub,

Ancient Hebrew as a language is a dialect of Canaanite (AKA Phoenician), with heavy Aramaic influence. So it is not surprising that same words might have different spelling, or even be spelled in reverse order from the Aramaic.

Here's an example that I gave a website that deals with the Canaanite topics (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.phoenicia.org/">http://www.phoenicia.org/</a><!-- m -->), where I show a comparison between the Canaanite and the Aramaic (using Syriac script; notice the nun and rish in some words):
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.beith-morounoye.org/special/example.PDF">http://www.beith-morounoye.org/special/example.PDF</a><!-- m -->

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Linguistic or pronunciation changes? - yaaqub - 01-19-2008

Shlama,

Thanks for the links.

I have recently found out that what I have is a Judeo-Aramaic (Jewish neo-Aramaic) adaptation of the Eastern Aramaic Peshitta. It is very similar to the Eastern Aramaic except for some minor spelling, pronunciation and sometimes order of characters.