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Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Printable Version

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Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 03-31-2013

And Mic,

Here is the full quote you gave above from Bishop Irenaeus, regarding this group you imagine and pretend was the "Jerusalem Mother Church".

Quote:Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God. Against Heresies Book I Chapter 26:2

Do you agree with that group? If so...these are the same group that went around and were subverting the True Gospel which Paul preached unto the Gentiles and Jews of the Diaspora, which he called false brothers, who had snuck in unaware into the Assembly of Alaha, being wolves in sheep?s clothing. St. Ignatius the 2nd Bishop of Antioch, warns about these same wolves in his letters.

Shlama,
Chuck

.


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 03-31-2013

Hi Chuck,
sorry you are wrong, if you study the Church Fathers, you will see that all the first Christians in the early times where called "Ebionites" (the Poor!) Some Church Fathers reported, that they had members of Yeshua's Familie in their lines, Heretics?
Keep in mind that most informations we have about the first Christians are coming from their anti-jewish Enemies!
The winner writes the History!

Have a look on this please:
Looking back on the doctrinal development of what is termed the sub-apostolic age, the Jewish Christian historian Hegesippus wrote regretfully:

The Church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin; whilst if there were any at
all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel, they were yet skulking
in dark retreats; but when the sacred choir of apostles became extinct, and the generation of
those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the
combinations of impious error arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also,
as there were none of the apostles left, henceforth attempted, without shame, to preach their
false doctrine against the true Gospel.


Sorry but you use the same arguments like some RK Church Fathers calling the first Christians "Heretics"!
As you can see Hegesippus does not agree with you!

I think it makes not much sense to continue this, because you are not open minded and do not respect others pov!
Peace be with you.
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 03-31-2013

Mic,

Here is the full quote you gave above from Bishop Irenaeus, regarding this group you imagine and pretend was the "Jerusalem Mother Church".

Quote:Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God. Against Heresies Book I Chapter 26:2

Do you agree with that group? If so...these are the same group that went around and were subverting the True Gospel which the Apostle Paul preached unto the Gentiles and Jews of the Diaspora, which he called false brothers, who had snuck in unaware into the Assembly of Alaha, being wolves in sheep?s clothing. St. Ignatius the 2nd Bishop of Antioch, warns about these same wolves in his letters.

Shlama,
Chuck

.


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 03-31-2013

You are getting your groups mixed up there, Mic. Keep reading and perhaps you will get it all straight. And yes...you are barking up the wrong tree with me. I do not respect your point of view, as it is a false teaching and false faith that you bring. I am not to respect such things, but rather to expose them for what they are, and from whom they are. I love and respect you as a person though, enough to warn you and rebuke your error.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-01-2013

Hi Chuck,
the first mention of the term "Nazarenes" by the church fathers was in the year 376 in a document called Panarion!
Before they called the first Christians "Ebionites", p.e. Origen in his fifth book of Contra Celsum, chapt.61, written in 248AD!
It is not me who is mixing up things here, maybe you did not know this?
Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 04-01-2013

Michael,

By mixing groups, I meant that you are mixing up the groups of True disciples of Messiah, with those who were false brothers, whom the Apostle Paul in 45-60s A.D. speaks of in his letters, warning the true believers about them...and which Bishop Ignatius warns about in about 107 A.D. and which Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and a host of others warn against and expose as heretics, concerning the True Gospel and teachings of the Apostles.

The True Jewish disciples in Jerusalem, where James was considered among the Apostolic order, and which some of Messiah's relatives from the family of Messiah's Mother's relatives were joined with, said in about 50 A.D. that these men who were contending with the Apostle Paul, had not been sent out by the Church in Jerusalem.

Those men and their followers were the beginning of the "Ebionite" heretical sect, who later became extinct, and who shared some beliefs with the true Jewish Disciples (whom I would call Nazarenes, not Ebionites), but were not part of their number. They were outside the Sheepfold, and were sending their men out to try to undermine the God appointed, and Apostles in Jerusalem blessed work, which the Apostle Paul and his companions were doing by the leading of The Holy Spirit.

They, like you, certainly thought that they were the members of the true Assembly of Messiah, yet by their doctrines they show they were not, to such a degree, that they had to reject all the letters of the Apostle Paul, and consider him an apostate, rather than an Apostle. They must have also rejected the book of Acts as well, and seem to only use and accept some altered form of the Gospel according to Matthew, which was also called "the gospel of the Hebrews", which agreed with their heretical teachings.


Shlama,
Chuck

.


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-01-2013

Hi Chuck,
again i do not agree with you, i agree with Hegesippus!

Historian Hegesippus wrote regretfully:

The Church (Nazarenes) continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin; whilst if there were any at
all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel, they were yet skulking
in dark retreats; but when the sacred choir of apostles became extinct, and the generation of
those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the
combinations of impious error arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also,
as there were none of the apostles left, henceforth attempted, without shame, to preach their
false doctrine against the true Gospel.

Your point of view is that of the RK Church which moved the centre of Christianity from Jerusalem to Rome which was never accepted by the Nazarenes and the Family of our Lord (The disposiny)! They call the original Movement "Heretics" like you!
Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-01-2013

Here some more information from a very good book!

Evidence of the Jewish Background of the Early Church
Jewish Leadership in the Early Church
Dr. Ron Moseley, Yeshua: A Guide to the real Jesus and the original Church:

Contrary to what some believe, the first fifteen bishops of the original Church at
Jerusalem were Jewish. In his Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius tells us that "the
church at Jerusalem, at first formed of the circumcision, came later to be formed of
Gentile Christians, and the whole church under them, consisted of faithful Hebrews
who continued from the time of the apostles, until the siege of Jerusalem."(1)
In his second-century historical work, Hegesippus describes the rivalry between a
man named Thebouthis and others, seeking the position of bishop after the death of
James, who was said to be the first pastor at Jerusalem.(2) According to
Hegesippus, the Hebrew Christians finally chose Simeon, who was a cousin of the
Lord, to succeed James. Epiphanius lists the remaining thirteen Jewish pastors of
the Jerusalem Church as Justus, Zaccheus, Tobias, Benjamin, John, Mathias, Philip,
Seneca, Justus, Levi, Ephrem, Joseph, and Jude, completing the historical record
all the way up to the Bar Kochba Revolt (A.D. 132-135).(3) These Jewish relatives of
Jesus who led the early Church were called Desposynoi, meaning "heirs," and were
often persecuted because of their Davidic lineage and their relationship to the
Messiah.

Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-01-2013

Hi Chuck,

this is my way:

My belief system is large enough to include all of the facts.
It is open enough to be tested.
It is flexible enough to change when I become aware of new facts.

This is your way:

My belief system ignores all or some of the facts.
It is not open to being challenged or questioned.
It does not change when I become aware of new facts.

It fits not together!

Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 04-02-2013

:

Did you get the message I sent to your personal box, Michael?

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-02-2013

Yes Chuck,
got it, i know that web site from that Atheist guy, he is using it against Christianity, i do not like that!
On the other hand he collected a lot of historical facts, but nothing new for me, so far!
How can you ask me, if i agree with an Atheist? By the way historical facts have nothing to do with faith!
Lets talk here open and not "private" please!
Here the link you did send me, that others know what we are talking about:
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/nazarenes.html

Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Thirdwoe - 04-02-2013

Michael,

Is that what you actually believe? Please say no.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-02-2013

HI Chuck,
a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest!
Paul Simon

Kind regards
Michael


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - Paul Younan - 04-02-2013

Hi Michael.

Actually, please don't talk about it openly here. I'm willing to tolerate a thread that starts out about linguistics, but if it delves into theological arguments then it will be closed.

No one really cares what I or you believe, that it between me, you and our Lord. This is not the proper place for this talk.

Take care,

+Shamasha


Re: Marya Yeshua - YHWH YHWH Saves??? - mickoy - 04-02-2013

Hi Paul,
i will respect that, you are right, faith is a personal thing!
Kind regards
Michael