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New Testament in Hebrew - Printable Version

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New Testament in Hebrew - Dave - 12-12-2004

Dave,

I ran across a site that provides a translation of the NT in Hebrew. The site explains that this was carried out by several Jews quite a while back. They took the greek and translated it into Hebrew. The site is here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.torahwellsprings.org/">http://www.torahwellsprings.org/</a><!-- m -->

The reason I'm bringing it up to you is for the possibility of trying an experiment. You have done extensive code research in the greek already and this would be another area to cover on the originality aspect.

I believe, as you know, that the peshitta is a condensed, standardized translation from the greek, so do a majority of scholars. Your research is interesting to me in that it produces a different effect than would be expected from a translation, i.e. it has more codes than the greek does. I would think it would be the other way around.

Nevertheless, here would be an opportunity to actually check this aspect. Would there be more codes from a Hebrew text that is translated from the greek? In my mind, there shouldn't be. But if there is,..... This would be an area that needs an answer.

EDIT: Here is a site I found that has the same text but avaiable in PDF and HTML formats for download:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dvar-adonai.org/">http://dvar-adonai.org/</a><!-- m -->


- Dave - 12-13-2004

Btw, This isn't some bait and trap suggestion Dave, I'm just interested in this aspect. If there is no change, then the code aspect of the Peshitta, and the possible originality, would present itself as being somewhat valid. But if the code availability became greater, then the originality would seem suspect.


- gbausc - 12-13-2004

Hi Dave,

I have already tested the Hebrew version of War and Peace for codes- nothing there .
The Hebrew NT I do have, but only in pdf.
I don't expect to find anything more there than in War and Peace. Surely you don't suspect it may be the original text, do you ? It is a translation from Greek, so it cannot be original. You probably wanted me to compare another Hebrew text with The Peshitta, right ? That I have already done.

Blessings,


Dave


- Dave - 12-14-2004

Oh no, I wouldn't expect this hebrew version to be the original since it is a documented translation from the greek. My interest in it is to see if the "code structure" that you say is in the greek changes or increases with a translation.

If it was not to increase, then this aspect would have been explored to ensure that a translation does not make a difference on the code structure, and there would be documented evidence to point to an possible original or original source. If it would increase then the code theory would be suspect since this would give evidence of a way to manipulate the outcome.

I don't think war and peace is one of the written texts from the apostles so I would expect any multiple thoughts and codes within that sort of text.

The site I listed at the bottom has it in pdf and html.


- gbausc - 12-14-2004

Shlama Akhi Dave,


I have never found code structure in The Greek NT, only in The Peshitta. I also find it in the Hebrew OT.

War and Peace is a Hebrew translation of the Russian novel by Leo Tolstoy. It is only a section of it, cut down to match the length of the Hebrew Torah (304,805 letters). It would serve as a good control text by which to compare results in a translated Hebrew text with the results in the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures,including The Peshitta.

How's the cruise going ?
My daughter , Joanna, is on the USS Ronald Reagan, San Diego port, right now.

Have a blessed Christmas. I will be praying for you as you are serving your country.

Dave


- Dave - 12-15-2004

Hey Dave,

I'm doing isolation duty here at Diego Garcia, working on a new BOS Contract for the next 6 or 7 years. I'll retire here from the Navy in the next year so, no more sea time for me. But, I'm doing really well here. I spent some time looking around sites and such about Hebrew. I haven't made up my mind on what to utilize on the learning of this. I think your idea of a synagogue has the most merit. For me, it would seem better to have a direct teacher on this.


Quote:War and Peace is a Hebrew translation of the Russian novel by Leo Tolstoy. It is only a section of it, cut down to match the length of the Hebrew Torah (304,805 letters). It would serve as a good control text by which to compare results in a translated Hebrew text with the results in the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures,including The Peshitta.

Hmmm, I would have to disagree bro. Unless you actually try a translated text to test the results up against the peshitta, than you have no "true" test on this. You gotta remember, a big majority,....nothing small here,...a BIG majority of the scholars believe that this text is a translation from the greek. And the condensed aspect of this goes against all the older western witnesses and church father quotes. My conclusions are in agreement with the majority on this.

Now that I know that there has been a translation into Hebrew from the greek, I could easily say "Hey, someone translated the greek into Hebrew before, what's not to say that this was done with the aramaic?"

It is an area of concern and should be explored. If the text has merit, then it will prove itself.


- gbausc - 12-15-2004

Shlama Akhi Dave,

Why does the Greek text not have codes, while The Peshitta does ?

As far as a translation, are you saying it has to be a NT translation ?

I hope you do pursue The Hebrew study. You would really enjoy it.

Burkhtha,

Dave


- Dave - 12-17-2004

Quote:As far as a translation, are you saying it has to be a NT translation ?

Well,....yes Dave!

I assume that you do wish to know if a translation does contain or create a code structure?! Scholars for centuries have said that this is a translation from the greek, similar to what Taitan may have done, on down to Thomas of Harkel. There has always been translations from the greek into syriac/aramaic.

Don't you want to test this to find out if the scholars are wrong? What good is a test on something that is not of the same text?


Quote:Why does the Greek text not have codes, while The Peshitta does ?

Well shoot Dave,...I don't know?!

Not trying to be aggressive about it with you, I just don't know. But then again, should I be worried about it? I'm not a naysayer over the work you do, I think it is interesting, but is this going to change the documented history of the 1st and 2nd centuries??

And yes, I look forward to dwelving into learning this language!!!!!


- gbausc - 12-17-2004

Shlama Dave,,

Do you know if there is a Hebrew NT without the vowel points ? The Hebrew or Aramaic search text
cannot have vowel points, and it is extremely difficult to remove them once they're present.

Dave


- Dave - 12-18-2004

That text provided is the only one I have found, I ran across it by chance one night.

Quote:The Hebrew or Aramaic search text cannot have vowel points

You lost me here Dave. Correct me if I'm wrong, your saying that the only way to "measure" a code structure is without the vowels in place? It has to be similar to the old hebrew consonant structure?

So there is no real way to measure any other language besides hebrew and aramaic in this particular form?


- gbausc - 12-18-2004

Hi Dave,

I suppose Arabic could also be read without the vowel points. The original Hebrew Bible did not have written vowel points. They were pronounced but there was no system for writing them until the Masoretes invented one several centuries A.D..

The same applies to Aramaic.So , technically, the written vowel points are not original or inspired. There are many places where different vowel points could change the meaning of a word somewhat: Milk-fat; spirit- smell;create-cut down, etc..
Usually the context makes plain what the meaning is and which form is to be used.

Anyhow, I have found the consonantal text from Deilitsch's Hebrew NT. I will reformat it and test it for codes.This will take some time.

Merry Christmas, Dave,


Dave


- Dave - 12-18-2004

Interesting stuff!

Quote:Anyhow, I have found the consonantal text from Deilitsch's Hebrew NT.

Ok, I didn't know if there was a text out there that you could use.

You know Dave, I could tell you were hesitant about this. Hehe, that's ok, who knows what you may find. It could favor the aramaic text or it could not, only one way to tell.

I also had a question about the canon structure or the particular order of the books, does it matter what order the books are in? You site explained the cypher like aspect of these codes, I assume the book order would have some effect?


- Dave - 12-19-2004

Btw Dave, is this Deilitsch text a verified translation from the greek? I can't find any info on it.


- gbausc - 12-19-2004

Shlama Dave,


Deilitch (not sure of spelling here) is a translation of the Greek NT. He
was a Hebrew authority from Germany who compiled a Hebrew lexicon and grammar. His is probably the one you found as well, with vowel points removed.

I seemed hesitant I suppose because I have already tested a Hebrew translation , just not a Bible translation. I am not quite sure what value a translated Hebrew NT can have, considering the Greek behind it has no significant codes, but I can see your point about testing the same type of text as the Peshitta in the same NT books to see if a translation of the NT can produce codes.
The problem is that there may be no end to objections from others who want another text tested, and another , and another. Someone will want an Arabic search, someone else a Latin search, someone another Greek text, someone else , the Coptic text, etc. etc..

I can't test them all. I can leave those to others to search. Let someone else prove they can find codes in a translation or their version of the "original".

Book order does make a difference when testing the whole NT, especially
when testing for long codes, like my 25 letter code, which covers 96%
of the NT. If the books were in a different order, the code would not exist.
Check it out in "What is a Bible Code?" at my web site.


Merry Christmas !

Dave


- Dave - 12-20-2004

Quote:The problem is that there may be no end to objections from others who want another text tested, and another , and another. Someone will want an Arabic search, someone else a Latin search, someone another Greek text, someone else , the Coptic text, etc. etc..

Hmmm, that is not something that I want to happen to you. One test would suffice. Everyone seems to believe that the greek was the original so let's do the test to see if a code structure presents itself.

After that I would refuse any other tests only because secondary langauges, even translations of the third type, would show less and less probablity, at least that would seem to make sense.